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[adamjknight]

Hi Guys,

I am thinking of trying Logic, cause i hear it is better for songwriting types like myself.
Sounds like the midi, plugins and general workflow could be more condusive to my creativity and you get more value for money compared to my current MBox2 rig.

Anyway, I need a two channel interface and my first stop would be a Duet except that it doesn't support midi and i can't connect my outboard (APIA2D) no SPDIF etc.

I can't afford (don't really need) the ensemble, though it would be nice.

What are my options here?  I am looking for high qaulity, not something i will grow out of too quickly but probably < $1000 if possible.

Adam

[jwhynot]

I decided a few weeks ago that I'd learn Logic using a bull-by-the-horns approach.

It takes a while to get used to the quirks, to be honest.  But I'm really enjoying it now.

As for interface - I'm using PTHD with Core Audio.  I haven't yet gotten their TDM patch to work properly.  For writing, the 8 ins and 2 outs I generally use are perfectly sufficient.

JW

[L Ron]

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.htm l

2 channel s/pdif 34 channels adat I/O

works with PT (M-powered) or Logic

I've always thought this could be amazing if using logic but I'm too comfy on PT. Duet rocks for portability but as you said no s/pdif or midi. If you want midi there's a cheap usb to midi cable.

Adam @ Mercenary would have the answers to your question for sure

[jwhynot]

I've used the Lightbridge - I can't recommend it.

There are far more reliable solutions.

JW

[L Ron]

That is too bad. It always seemed like an amazingly cheap work around for getting a ton of i/o with whatever converters you want. What was the reliability issue?

[ryan streber]

I don't know, I've had the lightbridge for a few years now. It used to be my main interface when I was still relying on PT M-powered (with AD16x's on the front end.)  Now, I use it for setting up backup or aux systems, and it's basically reliable as far as I've experienced.  

IIRC, it was absolutely miserable getting it working at first - lots of quirks with the driver installation, setup, getting clocking right, etc.  But once I got it going, it works well and certainly gives you a ton of digital I/O for the money.  When I have to do live electronics stuff (like live processing of audio for new-music gigs), my usual setup is a Rosetta 800 or AD16X feeding the lightbridge to MacBook Pro running, Live, Max, Logic, or whatever is needed.  Works fine for me.

[marcel]

jwhynot wrote on Sun, 18 April 2010 11:25

I've used the Lightbridge - I can't recommend it. There are far more reliable solutions. JW

I don't think it's that bad.

I have used a Lightbridge for about 2 years now, with Apogee Rosetta 800s and Lavry Blues into PTMP on a 2x2 G5.  I have found it reasonably reliable, albeit at a maximum of 18 simultaneous I/Os.  It's not HD, but it's not $8k, either.

If you don't have to jump through Digidesign's hoops, there are, as John says, much better solutions from RME, MOTU, Metric Halo, etc.

[jetbase]

I've been using a Lightbridge with PT M-Powered for a little over a year now. At first it was flaky, but when I got one of the recommended firewire cards for my PC it became very reliable. Maybe that's a bit silly in itself (to have a firewire interface being picky about what firewire cards it works with), but when you consider the cost of the lightbridge + a firewire card (if your motherboard FW chipset or existing FW card aren't suitable) it's still a pretty cheap option to get a reliable system operating &, IMO, a lot more flexible than LE.

[brianpcooney]

I've been thinking about getting a second setup with an iMac and starting to learn Logic as well.

The A/D in the Duet is fantastic and the preamps sound great too.  I wouldn't hesitate for a second using it as a main two channel interface for Logic.  I've used it many times just laying ideas down in GarageBand (I'd use it for my PT LE rig if I could) and it never ceases to amaze me.  

If you want to use your API A2D I would imagine you could use the analog outs to the line in on the Duet.  But, seriously, the Duet itself sounds great.  

FWIW...

[JohnLisiecki]

You know, if I'm the musician, and I'm recording various things, I really like logic.  

The minute I want to edit or mix something, not so much.

Some things are just not intuitive if you've used any other software first.

[grantis]

JohnLisiecki wrote on Sun, 18 April 2010 20:46

You know, if I'm the musician, and I'm recording various things, I really like logic.   The minute I want to edit or mix something, not so much. Some things are just not intuitive if you've used any other software first.

+1.  PT slays Logic when it comes to editing and mixing.

[PaulyD]

Digidesign/Avid writes Core Audio drivers for the Mbox 2, so you can use it with practically any DAW software for the Mac.

Paul

[PookyNMR]

grantis wrote on Sun, 18 April 2010 19:51

+1.  PT slays Logic when it comes to editing and mixing.

So does Cubase / Nuendo.

[jwhynot]

I personally prefer to slay my tools rather than wonder if one tool can slay another.

Just a thought.

I mix on PT - have done since, oh, I dunno, 98?  But I'm enjoying working with Logic and getting used to the various illogical things about it.

What Logic has over Cubase/Nuendo is a much larger user base in LA.  No matter what people might tell you… I see DAWs in this order of frequency:

1.  Pro Tools by a long, long way.
2.  Logic
3.  Digital Performer

Distant 4th - all others combined.

Anyway - I wish they would get rid of that vestigial "environment" concept.  Life is so much simpler if a "track" in the arrange window is equivalent to a "channel" in the mixer.

Too much messing around to get simple things to happen.

But once the environment is set and you have a good template, I find the workflow in Logic to be quite inspiring.

JW

[grantis]

jwhynot wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 11:14

I personally prefer to slay my tools rather than wonder if one tool can slay another.

It's hard to slay when you don't have a sword to cut with.

I keep looking for that beat detective thingy....where the eff is it?

[wsg89]

No one has talked about how things SOUND.  PT m-powered- lightbridge sounds like its coming from inside a cardboard box.  Real A/D-D/A, apogee,lynx,and almost anything else sounds better than m-powered PT.  You can't possibly expect something that cost 400 bucks for 24 channels to be even close to sounding good or dependable...Not trying to ba a dick, just  speaking from experience...  

[grantis]

wsg89 wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 13:12

No one has talked about how things SOUND.  PT m-powered- lightbridge sounds like its coming from inside a cardboard box.  Real A/D-D/A, apogee,lynx,and almost anything else sounds better than m-powered PT.  You can't possibly expect something that cost 400 bucks for 24 channels to be even close to sounding good or dependable...Not trying to ba a dick, just  speaking from experience...

The man's right.  

I'm just talking about software.

But with the budget presented by the OP,  MBox2 is the way to go.  Sounds decent, has MIDI, has S/PDIF (which will work with his great sounding A2D) and can be used with both PT and Logic.  Win/Win/Win.

[brianpcooney]

wsg89 wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 14:12

No one has talked about how things SOUND.  PT m-powered- lightbridge sounds like its coming from inside a cardboard box.  Real A/D-D/A, apogee,lynx,and almost anything else sounds better than m-powered PT.  You can't possibly expect something that cost 400 bucks for 24 channels to be even close to sounding good or dependable...Not trying to ba a dick, just  speaking from experience...

I did.  The Duet sounds great and blows away any of the PT M-powered or 00x converters.  

[jetbase]

wsg89 wrote on Wed, 21 April 2010 04:12

No one has talked about how things SOUND.  PT m-powered- lightbridge sounds like its coming from inside a cardboard box.  Real A/D-D/A, apogee,lynx,and almost anything else sounds better than m-powered PT.  You can't possibly expect something that cost 400 bucks for 24 channels to be even close to sounding good or dependable...Not trying to ba a dick, just  speaking from experience...

I don't understand how this relates. Personally I've never really heard the D/A converters in the lightbridge (& it doesn't do A/D). I just use it as an interface between my DAW, a HD24 & Prism converters. Are you saying there's a problem with D-D in the lightbridge, and/or with PT Mpowered software? I use both Mpowered (in my studio) & LE (in another studio), but it's hard to compare between different studios, and both using 'outboard' ADC. I'd be interested to hear if the Lightbridge transfers s/pdif differently to the Mbox2, or lightpipe differently to 002, etc, or if Mpowered software sounds different to LE software (but why would it?).

[Tomas Danko]

jwhynot wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 17:14

I personally prefer to slay my tools rather than wonder if one tool can slay another. Just a thought. I mix on PT - have done since, oh, I dunno, 98?  But I'm enjoying working with Logic and getting used to the various illogical things about it. What Logic has over Cubase/Nuendo is a much larger user base in LA.  No matter what people might tell you… I see DAWs in this order of frequency: 1.  Pro Tools by a long, long way. 2.  Logic 3.  Digital Performer Distant 4th - all others combined. Anyway - I wish they would get rid of that vestigial "environment" concept.  Life is so much simpler if a "track" in the arrange window is equivalent to a "channel" in the mixer. Too much messing around to get simple things to happen. But once the environment is set and you have a good template, I find the workflow in Logic to be quite inspiring. JW

The initial idea with Logic was that it's object oriented, and hence very flexible and advanced. The downside to this is of course that the learning curve is very steep and some things are not intuitive at all.

For instance, the metronome doesn't really exist as a hard coded part, it's created inside the environment by connecting and hooking up logic functions.

The more user friendly Logic gets, the less configurable it alsog ets. It's of course a trade off.

FWIW, I use Logic as well as Pro Tools HD and LE and like it all for what they are instead of disliking them for what they are not. (And sometimes, but only sometimes, Vegas slays them all, ha!)

[Everglass]

This looks like it would be a good choice for you.....

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_index.php

The BABYFACE interface from RME.

Not sure when it will be released however.....soon?

[marcel]

wsg89 wrote on Wed, 21 April 2010 04:12

No one has talked about how things SOUND.  PT m-powered- lightbridge sounds like its coming from inside a cardboard box.  Real A/D-D/A, apogee,lynx,and almost anything else sounds better than m-powered PT.  You can't possibly expect something that cost 400 bucks for 24 channels to be even close to sounding good or dependable...Not trying to ba a dick, just  speaking from experience...

Well, you don't seem to have any experience with the Lightbridge.  It's simply an ADAT lightpipe bridge from converters to computer.  There is no sonic difference from HD or LE, as long as the same converters and properly implemented wordclock are used.

I would suspect that a Lightbridge may sound 'better' than the 00x series with lightpipe in certain circumstances, as the Digi boxes don't allow proper wordclock sync.  

I regularly swap sessions between the M-powered/Lightbridge system in my room and the HD3 system in the room next door and things sound the same (assuming my Apogee and Lavry converters make the trip, too!)

The differences between MP/LE and HD come with the additional DSP horsepower and TDM plugins, available track and I/O counts, connectivity freedom (as FW and USB busses are not used for audio interfacing), delay compensation, latency, etc.

AFA the software having a 'sound', AFAIK M-powered PT is exactly the same software as LE, in the operational sense.  I'm sure they didn't re-write the code for MP any more than they had to to make it work with the interfaces.

[wsg89]

Guys- Let me explain my experience in more detail, being slightly less inflamatory.  A couple of years ago we were looking to upgrade from Mackie 24/96.  We had the good fortune to be able to A/B the following systems-
 Mackie with proprietary converters
 Mackie with SSL xlogic
 PT M with SSL xlogic (lightbridge)
 PTHD (7? not sure) with Aurora Lynx
 Apogee 16X symphony with Logic 8
We used identical 2 track program material and mix signal path for each system- Digital out/TAC matchless/UA 2192/Masterlink.
 Mackie sounded good- We had used it without problem for more than a decade and loved the editing interface.
 SSL/Mackie- no noticable improvement in sound or operation.
 PTHD/Lynx- seemed very solid on startup clock\sync etc. Sounded surprisingly similar to the Mackie...Flame on..
 Apogee/Logic- to us, best sounding- insert you own adjectives- full,smooth,wide,warm whatever. You can turn it on,unplug it,start the computer first or last,run it hot(HVAC break down)run it cold(long story)and to this day a great system (albiet a somewhat sharp learning curve with Logic).However I can not say the same about...
 PTM lightbridge/ ssl- when we could get them all to sync up-which was NEVER, it sounded like the description in my original post, not even close to the audio quality of any of the other systems including the Mackie by itself. Maybe it was the SSL,but it worked well with the 24/96,even though it didn't improve the sound. I am sure many folks are making great records with a lightbridge. And there is no question its all about the converters and clock but I have heard hundreds of PTLe and PTM mixes and they do not sound as good as PTHD or Logic mixes-TO ME.
 Also,I am not trying to be critical of anyones setup, but I will repeat-You can't expect a box that does 24 channels and costs 400 bucks to be dependable and sound good. I guess the best advise is to buy the most system you can afford that works great as a system.  PTM powered/lightbridge did not work for us.
 Sorry about the long reply and thread hijack.

Scott
analog2studios.com  
   
 
 

[jwhynot]

How can you qualify a sound on a system that would "never" sync?

JW

[jwhynot]

Hi Tomas -

Yeah that was the selling point - but I think the main "logic" behind separating audio objects from arrange tracks was the possibility of optimizing performance on pre-G3 computers.

This is no longer relevant.  There is no reason to stack resources like that - modern computers don't need that.

Anyway I completely agree that each tool has its uses.  I use the 3 main ones - PT being the preferred mix tool.  I do mix in the other 2 as well - it really depends on the shortest route to music.

JW

[marcel]

Scott:

I think your tests reveal a lot about the relative quality of the converters you auditioned.  Perform the test with those various systems using the same converters and the same clock implementation and I bet your results would be shades of gray.

Anyways, the air marshals are advancing on us with their guns drawn, so I'll just say that I used Logic every day for quite a few years and found it to be a fine program in many respects.  My current use of PT has everything to do with convenience and the needs of my current business, and almost nothing to do with sonics.

[wsg89]

Marcel:  You are probably right.  As I was posting( I am a terrible typer) I slowly realized we might not have mixed and matched the converters fairly.  We were thinking about mostly complete systems for purchase.  jwhynot-"never" of course is an exaggeration,but we actually stayed with PTM lightbridge/SSL for a few weeks and it was a daily fight to get it to work.  We cancelled more than a few sessions.  We can't possibly be the only ones...

S

[jetbase]

wsg89 wrote on Fri, 23 April 2010 13:03

Marcel:  You are probably right.  As I was posting( I am a terrible typer) I slowly realized we might not have mixed and matched the converters fairly.  We were thinking about mostly complete systems for purchase.  jwhynot-"never" of course is an exaggeration,but we actually stayed with PTM lightbridge/SSL for a few weeks and it was a daily fight to get it to work.  We cancelled more than a few sessions.  We can't possibly be the only ones... S

Scott, thanks for clarifying. In your situation I would probably have made the same choices. I also had problems getting the lightbridge to sync initially. There are 2 things you can't do with a lightbridge if you want it to work correctly: 'double power' it (by using an external power supply as well as USB power) or use a firewire card that it's not happy with. Like I said, I think it's silly in that respect. But if you have few other options, like I did, simply using the right firewire card & usb power only will ensure reliable operation. Not that you would care now that you have another system, but just for anyone else's info.

[jwhynot]

I found lightbridge to be a giant hassle.

But I didn't understand the comparisons of the sound of it.  Is all.

I really don't care…

JW

[Spindrift]

I've never been able to get my MBox 2 to play nicely with CoreAudio and Logic.  I've gotten so mad at it I've wanted to toss it in a wood chipper. I just purchased a Duet and it integrates VERY well with Logic.  I highly recommend it.

Anyone want a GREAT deal on an MBox 2?  Make me an offer!

Keith

[wsg89]

Make that 2!  Package deal!  Can you daisy chain them?  I also have a duet that plays well with logic and mac.  Has anyone noticed that you can really overdrive (badly) on the input side or was that marimba just way too loud?

[JohnLisiecki]

I will say this: the Apogee Duet + 13" Macbook Pro (and Logic) + firewire drive has turned out to be a great-sounding portable overdub system.  It is a vast improvement over the many past attempts I've made at putting such a system together.

[Spindrift]

I ended up unloading my MBox 2 for $200 over at GS.  Never so glad as to see that thing go......