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Author Topic: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax  (Read 11675 times)

PookyNMR

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 01:55:52 am »

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 06:19:22 am »

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?

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bblackwood

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 10:10:14 am »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 05:19

An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?



I'd be interested in seeing how many of those who think those who are able to 'afford' more taxes refuse their own tax refunds or itemization/deductions wrt to their own taxes. You know, put their money where their mouth is.

I suspect the answer is pretty close to zero.
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Brad Blackwood
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 10:25:19 am »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 15:10

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 05:19

An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?



I'd be interested in seeing how many of those who think those who are able to 'afford' more taxes refuse their own tax refunds or itemization/deductions wrt to their own taxes. You know, put their money where their mouth is.

I suspect the answer is pretty close to zero.


I think you may have missed a couple of words out there, because it's not quite making sense to me grammatically.

Refusing a refund on moral grounds would only make sense if you believed the tax system was skewed unfairly in your favour.

My point is, the top 50% of earners pay 97% of the tax... but if they're receiving somewhere near 97% of the income, this would make perfect sense (we know for sure that they're receiving considerably more than half of the income).
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bblackwood

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 10:32:12 am »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 09:25

I think you may have missed a couple of words out there, because it's not quite making sense to me grammatically.

Refusing a refund on moral grounds would only make sense if you believed the tax system was scewed unfairly in your favour.

I think it reads fine, kinda badly worded but I think the point is clear.

Restated, on moral grounds, do those that feel that 'he who can afford it should pay more' are doing so or are they getting every penny back they can?
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Brad Blackwood
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 10:41:13 am »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 15:32

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 09:25

I think you may have missed a couple of words out there, because it's not quite making sense to me grammatically.

Refusing a refund on moral grounds would only make sense if you believed the tax system was scewed unfairly in your favour.

I think it reads fine, kinda badly worded but I think the point is clear.


If you hadn't missed out the "should pay more" part (which you used in your second post), then it would read fine.... I thought that was what you meant, but couldn't be sure.
Quote:


Restated, on moral grounds, do those that feel that 'he who can afford it should pay more' are doing so or are they getting every penny back they can?

Well again, this would only make sense if they thought that the tax system was treating them unneccessarily generously... just because someone thinks that those who can afford more should pay more, it doesn't follow that they should feel they are in the group who should pay more.

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Jon Hodgson

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 10:52:03 am »

This page is interesting...

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

It shows that the federal income tax rate is effectively progressive from an average of 3% for the 50% of households earning the least, to 22% for the 1% of households earning the most.

We can also calucuate that the lower 50% earned an average of about 14k a year each, which if we assume that a good chunk of them will have two or more people in the household, and accept these figures for the poverty line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Puts a lot of them as being officially poor.

Another interesting figure, the total income (as calculated for federal income tax purposes) of the top 0.1% is approximately the same as for the bottom 50%.
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PookyNMR

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 11:56:34 am »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 08:52

Another interesting figure, the total income (as calculated for federal income tax purposes) of the top 0.1% is approximately the same as for the bottom 50%.


I highly suspected something like this.

Of course, you won't see this kind of critical analysis in an activistic news report.
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Nathan Rousu

Berolzheimer

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2010, 03:14:14 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 03:19

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?




Another interesting figure to see would be, what percentage of their actual income- including capital gains- the top 1% & 5% are paying in taxes, compared to the middle 5% or 10%.
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yhomas

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 07:15:29 pm »

Berolzheimer wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 20:14

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 03:19

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?




Another interesting figure to see would be, what percentage of their actual income- including capital gains- the top 1% & 5% are paying in taxes, compared to the middle 5% or 10%.


These figures are not that hard to come up with--they are found in the same previously posted link:  http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The AGI numbers include capital gains. http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/modagi.htm

"
Q: Are capital gains included in AGI?

A: Yes. For example, if you have a $20,000 capital gain, it will increase your AGI (and your modified AGI) by $20,000. This is true even for long-term capital gains that are subject to special tax rates.
"



-- The top 1% (AGI over $410k) pay a federal income tax on their AGI (which includes capital gains) to the tune of ~22.45%.  The top 5% (AGI over $160k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of ~20.53%.  
-- The top 25% (AGI over $66.5k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 16%.  
-- Those in top 26% to 50% (that is the top 50% minus the top 25%) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 7%.  
-- The bottom 50% pay ~3%.

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danickstr

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2010, 10:41:45 pm »

so if I make 10 mil a year, I am paying 2.2 mil in taxes, but I have 7.8 mil to blow on yachts, pretty girls and cocaine.  heyahooooo!  Sign me up for that guy's high tax burden.
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Berolzheimer

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2010, 11:15:48 pm »

yhomas wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 16:15

Berolzheimer wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 20:14

Jon Hodgson wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 03:19

PookyNMR wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 06:55

Quote:

From the IRS tax year 2007:

Top 1% AGI [$410,096]: pay 40.42% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 5% AGI [$160.041]: pay 60.63% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 10% AGI [$113.018]: pay 71.22% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 25% AGI [$66,532]: pay 86.59% of all Federal Income Tax
Top 50% AGI [$32,879]: pay 97.11% of all Federal Income Tax


I saw these numbers on another forum.

I think they help bring a little perspective to the spin in the story.

Do we really want to begrudge American families who earn less than $32K for having their deductions / tax breaks relive them from the small amount of tax they pay (though likely significant amounts in regards to their meager budgets)?


An interesting figure would be... what percentage of the income are these people receiving?




Another interesting figure to see would be, what percentage of their actual income- including capital gains- the top 1% & 5% are paying in taxes, compared to the middle 5% or 10%.


These figures are not that hard to come up with--they are found in the same previously posted link:  http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The AGI numbers include capital gains. http://www.fairmark.com/rothira/modagi.htm

"
Q: Are capital gains included in AGI?

A: Yes. For example, if you have a $20,000 capital gain, it will increase your AGI (and your modified AGI) by $20,000. This is true even for long-term capital gains that are subject to special tax rates.
"



-- The top 1% (AGI over $410k) pay a federal income tax on their AGI (which includes capital gains) to the tune of ~22.45%.  The top 5% (AGI over $160k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of ~20.53%.  
-- The top 25% (AGI over $66.5k) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 16%.  
-- Those in top 26% to 50% (that is the top 50% minus the top 25%) pay an average federal income tax on their AGI of 7%.  
-- The bottom 50% pay ~3%.




Those are the applicable rates, but the question is how much do they actually pay after deductions etc?  That's the only fair way to look at it, as the "Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax" figure is also after deductions.
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grantis

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2010, 12:04:27 am »

danickstr wrote on Fri, 09 April 2010 21:41

so if I make 10 mil a year, I am paying 2.2 mil in taxes, but I have 7.8 mil to blow on yachts, pretty girls and cocaine.  heyahooooo!  Sign me up for that guy's high tax burden.


Where'd you get those numbers?  that's not anywhere near correct.

Under new tax law (IE, the new healthcare law, etc), if you made 10mil, you'd be paying 5.9mil in tax.

Unless you came up with a bunch of write offs.

My problem with all of this is....the average american work week has been hovering about 34 hours a week for the last decade or so (down as low as 31 during recession).

If 50% of america really is "poor" by definition, it's nobody's fault but their own.  Get up off your lazy but and do something about it instead of working a pathetic 31 hours a week.  this country's sense of entitlement is sickening, and it's the lawyer who spends 90 hours a week in his office EARNING 500k a year who has to pay for all of that sheer laziness.

i'm PAYING my dues by working my ass off for poverty level pay in hopes that it will someday lead to something bigger and better, (and more lucrative).  how sad that i will be continuing to pay dues when that day comes, just in a much more pocket burning kind of way.

although it all makes sense.  why work your ass off when you've already got a free meal ticket?  i guess 50% of america is ok with mediocrity.

there, i said it, and my tongue was only halfway in my cheek.

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Edvaard

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2010, 12:56:20 am »


Well, if one feels need to pick up a spear in the first place ...

(which, for all proclamations of "I'm  doing great here!" might
indicate otherwise, ... )


It is arguably easier to throw the spears at people stuck in the valley below than to aim them up hill at those well protected and well positioned to answer quickly.




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Berolzheimer

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Re: 2009: Nearly half of US households escape fed income tax
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2010, 02:12:33 am »

Grant-

ugh.

I don't even know where to start.  I was going to start by saying that post is just asanine, but I don't want to start a flame war with you.  
But it does show a bit of a lack of perspective.

I know you're young, I hope that with some more life experience you'll grow out of it.

I have to go now, more tomorrow.
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