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Author Topic: KM84 as live vocal mic?  (Read 22489 times)

Ted Olausson

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 03:14:40 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 07:17


The days of the myth that only dynamic mics could be used in sound reinforcement applications began to dissolve in the late 1980's and has all but disappeared.


Its not too uncommon to use condensers on everything except the snare bottom. Even for loud hardrock acts, like for instance the hellacopters european farewelltour, aswell as small clubgigs with only a handful of guests.
-Personally i think condensers made for livework (like milabs) are much better than a shure in soundquality, stagebleed, and especially feedback supression...
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 09:19:16 PM »

Andres Gonzalez wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 07:56


Klaus Heyne

Controlling 'plosives in a microphone with axially mounted capsule (KM84) is close to impossible without lots of acoustic trickery in front of and around the capsule (KMS84) to deflect the onslaught of LF sound pressure.


Is this the modification you were referring to earlier regarding Neil Young's modified KM84?  It seems to me that any modification that would reduce the 'plosives would also effect the sound quality in an adverse way. I guess that is why it is "trickery"



No. I was not involved in the design of Neumann's KMS series, and was not referring to it as the modification of a KM84. The mod I refer to increases the KM8x's sensitivity, low end, output and a few other things, and that was why I mentioned it: EVEN with the type of modifications that should make it even harder to use such a mic live, it still works, when a good FOH engineer is at the helm.
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Klaus Heyne
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 01:33:43 AM »

Glad to see others noting how condensors are showing up on many professional's stages and disproving the myth that they are feedback monsters.

I do agree that using the 84 live and up-close requires a foam pop filter. I priced the three straight foam 'puffballs' that Neumann sells-- between $30 and $40 each. The 4.95 version from Windtech is working fine for me at this time.

I have been using this setup for a week now, getting to know the pickup pattern better. I am pretty easy on a mic- quiet singer, not really 'eating' it. Working fine. But I would not put it up on a bandstand for just any singer to perform with- too fussy, fragile, and expensive.
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Mark Lemaire

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Fletcher

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2010, 09:03:48 AM »

Mark Lemaire wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 01:33

Glad to see others noting how condensors are showing up on many professional's stages and disproving the myth that they are feedback monsters.


Indeed a myth... the other thing is that since "in ear" monitors have become more widely accepted stage volumes have decreased dramatically.  Condensers are still tricky in small and medium sized "bar" venues, but from "soft seat" and up they're as common as grass in suburbia.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Ted Olausson

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2010, 07:35:32 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 08:03

 Condensers are still tricky in small and medium sized "bar" venues



It depends on the particular mic more than anything else...

My favourite condensers (Milab LC-28               http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/0/25521/48/1582 7/#msg_411050) dont have any problems in situations where a beta58 wont cut it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p01vl0JJn1g
Notice that this is the stagesound in the corner next to the guitaramplifier (behind the PA and out of reach for the vocal monitor) but the vocals from a soft singing girl are still easily to distinguish.
-Even if it is easy to hear that it has been echoed forth and back a couple of times in the venue before reaching the camera...

Here is another shot with hardrock on an extremly small stage in medieval catacombs with a lot of condensers in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2yVWEEPoDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PPp1RiNtBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKNyEQ3ErbM

A total of more than 120 amateurbands passed these two venues during these three weeks and none of them had a problem...
Standardsetting on both stages were 4 vocals (milab) 3 guitars (milab) and a various of other instruments from glockenspiel to god knows what and all of those were also milabs, drums were condensers too including the kick.


A much larger stage, and here you can see a bunch of condenser again, but its not much that is heard thru the cameras distortion...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goruSTg9_x0

Another kind of hard and loud music, where condensers are used for their ability to resist feedback and then is distorted electronically for the right effect.
(the guy in the white clothes is actually whispering <- this guy later bouht a condenser to avoid his endless feedbackproblems and has been happy with it thereafter)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufFeLlpX48

Obey the condenser on stage.. Very Happy
index.php/fa/14638/0/
-This is from a consert with the german group melotron in 2005.
http://www.melotron.com/
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Tomas Danko

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 06:08:02 AM »

Looks like Tech-Noir to me.

I was in the crowd at this very concert!

Sure sounded good to me. Smile
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Ted Olausson

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 07:01:18 AM »

Yes it was Smile I have done most concerts for the club technoir since 2004? i think.
There were some problems with the promixityeffect on the leadsinger so i had to keep one hand ready to compensate for that thru the whole concert, but that was all.
It was a very nice and friendly band and i really enjoyed to work with them so its a bit sad that they ended up in the european music contest and didnt come back in 2007 as promised.
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gk

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 01:42:34 PM »

I bought a KMS84 many years back and it's a great vocal mic.  Very warm and clear, and has a good natural sound reach. Also a good utility mic for just about anything, with the windscreen, which removes easily if desired-    jerry
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Mark Lemaire

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2010, 08:28:44 PM »

I have never- before today- heard of the KMS84. Looked it up and found some interesting photos! A few questions to the experts:

Did this mic ever catch on as a vocal mic?

What were it's years of manufacture? Number made?

Is it actually a KM84- but with extra windscreening and shockmounting?
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Mark Lemaire

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compasspnt

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 09:13:45 PM »

This website

http://www.radiomuseum.org/m/neumann_d_en_1.html

says this about the KM84:

Introduced: 1966
Kondensatormikrofon, Nierencharakteristik.
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David Satz

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2010, 02:21:25 PM »

The KMS 84 was introduced in 1977 and produced until 1991. Its pages from the English-language version of Neumann's Catalog 100 (1977) are attached.

--best regards
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Fletcher

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2010, 12:37:59 PM »

That said, they never really caught on as a wide use microphone for vocals in the music world.  Over the years I have seen them on many speaking podiums [mostly at colleges and universities].

FWIW, I found them an exceptional microphone for guitar amps both live and in the studio as the grill screen helped reduce "wind blast" problems.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Hallams

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 11:54:02 PM »

+1 for the KM85 for vocal duties and live stage work. Having the HPF makes it a better choice than the 84 on many live applications. I have had a pair for 5 years now but one is in need of a bit of work as it is down in output a few dB compared to it's paired mate.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 12:04:55 AM »

... if you consider a higher diaphragm tension on an otherwise stock KM84 mic a "High Pass Filter"...
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Klaus Heyne
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jetbase

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Re: KM84 as live vocal mic?
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 12:26:49 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Tue, 13 April 2010 14:04

... if you consider a higher diaphragm tension on an otherwise stock KM84 mic a "High Pass Filter"...


Klaus, is it intended to have the same result... and does it? Are there any advantages/disadvantages?

Thanks,
Glenn
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