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Author Topic: It is not getting easier.  (Read 2993 times)

Level

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It is not getting easier.
« on: August 02, 2004, 04:09:45 PM »

Here is one for all of you to ponder. I get 3 tracks of a single in today, three versions. All of them sound really good..great mixes!. The only thing I hear frequency wise is the 130 to 250hz is up just a shade more than it needs to be (boxyness but not overkill, 2dB solves it) and I could use a more low level instrumentation. No bass during the choruses. It is all crowded out.



I have done decompression before with success..however, in this case, here is the flow of the first song:

Crash, then intro. First verse, chorus, bridge, second verse, chorus, solo, chorus, chorus to fade.

This sucker is compressed but punchy. The intro is as loud as the final chorus! Going from bridge to chorus actually is a reduction in volume due to the limiter kicking in on the track..and I have not only heard these guys live many times..but their single that was a hit 25 years ago clearly had huge dynamical swings and this is the same version...just updated, with new backing vocals, up to date sounds and...the dreaded La2a cranked ad infinum.

They (the artists) were displeased with the "flow" (Hey man, do your thing, help the flow, put some bottom back in it during loud parts are my instructions)

SO, I began by reducing the volume of the whole track and dynamisizing the sections using eq and gain to put this thing in perspective. The problem is, I am afraid the artists will miss all that punch that is in the soft parts due to compression. No matter what, volume reduction, you lose the compression sound no matter how it is EQ'ed.

I am about to call for a remix..because the two buss compression gives the tune "no where to go"!

1. How do you usually tackle this?
2. How many are experiencing these problems?
3. What have you done to compromise without a remix?


I tried it 5 different ways. The best I could do was to drastically change the dynamic structure and then apply my own compressors and limiters. This gave *some* breathing room to the track and restored the punch, at least I have some bottom during the choruses but to keep bass balance throughout the track, the dynamics must now be there with a reduction of "juice" during the verses. As we know, once one gets used to the sound of the compression, it will not be as strong or as "alive sounding"  with the dynamics included ...and they  were destroyed to begin with. Although, I feel it is an improvement for the track, sonically they will miss all that slamm at the top I feel.

It has to sound good, and has to flow.

Ready and willing to take any advice. I am getting really dismayed at all this 2 buss compression, mixdown engineers applying their own mastering. It makes it damn hard to do anything meaningful.

PS, if anyone wants me to send them via email a before/after snippit of the first 40 seconds, PM me, I will do it in email of a 256K MP3 so you can hear this if it will be of help. Also, if I send it, please respond. No need to send it and have no response at all. I am not used to working with this much compression nor do I care to!




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bblackwood

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Re: It is not getting easier.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2004, 05:27:31 PM »

Level wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 15:09

I am getting really dismayed at all this 2 buss compression, mixdown engineers applying their own mastering. It makes it damn hard to do anything meaningful.

How this is handled varies from session to session, client to client, but I'd be careful saying stuff like above - 2 buss compression is not  a mastering thing. If it helps the track in the mixdown sit where it should, then it belongs in mixdown. If it's about limiting, call it limiting (and I agree that shouldn't be on the 2 buss...).

As for calling for a remix, again, it's an individual thing, but if you can show them their original mix and have them listen to the new mix, the request it not limited, you should be in business...
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: It is not getting easier.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2004, 05:48:22 PM »

Some of us call this dynamics inversion. It's often caused by overzealous buss compression. Mastering engineers can be guilty of doing this too, a common beginner's mistake, not to mention a few individuals who really ought to know better.

People frequently compress listening to the blend while completely missing that they've just killed the tune's dynamic structure because they are too close to the production. Unfortunately mixing and tracking are not nearly as simple as many people want to believe.

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Re: It is not getting easier.
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2004, 03:04:42 AM »

Brad, good advice, Bob O, exactly. I think I have something workable. Highs in the top top...take a hit when manipulated with this high level. It is next to impossible to make them subtle and sweet in the mix. Total sections of all ranges are dynamically disrupted. Lot of work to mold this into something the artist really wanted in the first place and also some destructive things cannot be repaired without going to the mix and working the indivigual tracking again.

I had one lone member ask for the tracks. Hopefully his email box held them and he will report back...privatly or publically, it is fine here.
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Ed Littman

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Re: It is not getting easier.
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2004, 01:57:59 PM »

Great job Bill!
You successfully created a living creature from a dead generic fm sound Very Happy .
On my system the original was shy in the bass but not boxy in the low mid. The hi mids were tedious & the vocals were harsh, & of coarse there was no dynamic change at all..

You warmed up the track by adding the right amount of bass. you brought out the quality of the lower octave background vocals maybe by adding 700hz & cutting 3k just by a .5 db?

The dynamics work great, when you get to the chorus it feels like a natural dynamic peak.

The only thing you have to do is raise the level a bit more (IMO you still have some headroom & still keep your dynamic range),or
convince the artist that the master should be that much lower than the mix.
Thanks,
Ed
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Re: It is not getting easier.
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2004, 03:04:36 PM »

Thank you Ed!

You are right...I do have more room to bring it up some and keep the dynamic feel..but not much. I could squeeze the RMS value up another 1.25dB and be satisfactory with anyone but those who want the most loudest CD. I wonder just how many engineers run into this on a frequent basis? I need to be competitive but know when "enough is enough" with these volume issues. The sample you received is where I feel comfortable in digital for great sound...getting just a shade more should not deteriorate the performance...but as the volume gets pushed, the track goes all to crap. End users should just turn that knob a little more if they want that volume level and not for it to be done on "our end".

As long as I have been doing this, mainly classical/orchestra/opera/jazz, finding the pocket on popular music seems to be a challenge. The balance between "loud" and "great" cancel each other.

Thank you for taking time to listen.
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