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Author Topic: Hip Hop Mastering  (Read 4440 times)

illynoise

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Hip Hop Mastering
« on: August 02, 2004, 06:39:44 AM »

Hi all, I'm new to this place.  

I have a hip-hop based studio, I've been producing this kind of music for about 15 years, so I'm not the normal "kid" with fruityloops deal here.  I've recently mixed a project at my studio and I'm trying to get a sound that I've heard on projects like Dr. Dre" and "G-Unit", which were mastered by Brian "Big Bass" Gardner.  Now I have done quite a few refs from all of these songs and then tried to put them into the software to see if it's going to be possible to get a good master from my mixes.

It seems to be likely that a master engineer would have success at being able to get these songs to that level.  

My question is:  Is there anyone here who has that kind of mastering experience with big hiphop groups?  If so, what are you charging and when are you available?

I still have everything, done in Logic, on the hard drive, but like I said I think that most of the mixes are ready.  If you hear these CD's that I'm talking about especially the "G-Unit" CD it's very loud and yet it's like there is still a little bit of headroom.  That's what I'm going for.  And the Bass is BUMPIN!

Any ideas and help is much appreciated!

BaseJase
illynoise
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Ed Littman

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2004, 09:28:22 AM »

I'm sure every list member has done hip hop.

Ed
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bblackwood

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2004, 09:32:51 AM »

illynoise, if you truly like what Brian Gardner is doing, you should call Bernie Grundman Mastering and find out what kind of rate you can get from them for BG to master your stuff. Don't try to emulate, get the real thing. If he's too expensive, then you can look to others...

My .02, fwiw.
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Brad Blackwood
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jazzius

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2004, 11:04:53 AM »

With rap, it's all about the sounds chosen in the production... and the mix. If you're not already in the ballpark, it'd be a waste of money going to BBB.....better spend the money on a pro mix. JMHOFWIW.

TotalSonic

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2004, 11:18:00 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 14:32

illynoise, if you truly like what Brian Gardner is doing, you should call Bernie Grundman Mastering and find out what kind of rate you can get from them for BG to master your stuff. Don't try to emulate, get the real thing. If he's too expensive, then you can look to others...

My .02, fwiw.


I deal with mastering hip-hop all the time (recently worked on some licensed remixes of Jay-Z, Fat Joe, Treach, Kanye West, etc. coming out on various releases on the AV8 & DJ Wholesale Inc. labels) -
but I think Brad gives excellent advice here.  If you hear someones work you really like - then that's the person you want to work with!  It might be a lot more affordable than you think.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2004, 02:07:59 PM »

I may be wrong but I strongly suspect not all that much is being done to Dr. Dre's mixes in mastering.

TotalSonic

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2004, 04:02:25 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 19:07

I may be wrong but I strongly suspect not all that much is being done to Dr. Dre's mixes in mastering.


Well - there definitely is some pretty heavy L2 action on the recent releases though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2004, 04:07:31 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 15:02

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 19:07

I may be wrong but I strongly suspect not all that much is being done to Dr. Dre's mixes in mastering.


Well - there definitely is some pretty heavy L2 action on the recent releases though.

I don't think so - I think it's their modified DomII's...
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Brad Blackwood
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TotalSonic

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2004, 04:29:37 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 21:07

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 15:02

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 19:07

I may be wrong but I strongly suspect not all that much is being done to Dr. Dre's mixes in mastering.


Well - there definitely is some pretty heavy L2 action on the recent releases though.

I don't think so - I think it's their modified DomII's...



interesting - thanks for the info.   Do you know who did the mods and what they are?

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2004, 05:22:23 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 15:29

bblackwood wrote:

I think it's their modified DomII's...



interesting - thanks for the info.   Do you know who did the mods and what they are?

Pretty sure they were done by BG tech Beno May. Dunno what they are, but imagine it's basically cleaning up the audio path...
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Brad Blackwood
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jazzius

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2004, 03:00:50 AM »

BBB told me he hasn't used his Dominator for years. He spoke of "SSL" type limiters. ??? . He's pretty cagey about his gear so it could be a false lead.

Dre spent years developing his sound. It's not the mastering. Personally, I'd chose Tom Coyne over BBB for rap....or maybe Chris Gehringer.

bobkatz

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2004, 05:33:00 PM »

illynoise wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 06:39

Hi all, I'm new to this place.  

I have a hip-hop based studio, I've been producing this kind of music for about 15 years, so I'm not the normal "kid" with fruityloops deal here.  I've recently mixed a project at my studio and I'm trying to get a sound that I've heard on projects like Dr. Dre" and "G-Unit", which were mastered by Brian "Big Bass" Gardner.  Now I have done quite a few refs from all of these songs and then tried to put them into the software to see if it's going to be possible to get a good master from my mixes.




Oy, don't get me started. Hip hop levels have reached the point where if you follow Gardner's "lead" you will be forced to master to the lowest common denominator.

A recent hip hop I did was forced to be at 6 dB peak to average ratio due to the client's insistence on it being "as hot as" a certain top album mastered by Gardner. By hook and by crook, by work, toil, sweat, and TEARS, I was able to make something that did not sound distorted (in a bad way; of course it was "distorted" in a hip hop way), unclear, unpunchy, and so on.

Quote:



It seems to be likely that a master engineer would have success at being able to get these songs to that level.  




If you want to call that "success". My matching Gardner's levels but bettering his sound was the biggest example of an unintentional left-handed compliment I've ever gotten from a satisfied client!
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illynoise

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2004, 08:55:50 PM »

Well, I'm doing everything in Wavelab to check it out.  I'm getting a constant db level of about -8db on the indicator.  I noticed that's about the same as some of the refs.  

I agree that the mixdowns that dre is doing are probably the key.  Like I said, I've been doing hiphop for 15 years, it's more like pop music now the way it sounds.  Listen to the Fugees " The Score", it's way lower than other albums of that day, really soft compared to todays sound also.  

People don't care about distortion, I do, but most people can't hear the difference even with mp3 distortion.  We can, but like I said they don't.

I don't think that cd's can get much louder, but until it peaks, it will go higher.  Someone mentioned Tom C.  Where is he at?  

We have budgeted up to a couple thousand for mastering.  But I don't follow "who's who of mastering".  If someone has names and what they've done, I would be interested in listening to some things.  

Peace,

Base Jase
Illynoise
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TotalSonic

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2004, 11:47:17 PM »

illynoise wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 01:55

 
Someone mentioned Tom C.  Where is he at?  
Base Jase
Illynoise


Tom's at Sterling Sound here in NYC -
http://www.sterling-sound.com/home/engineers/eng_info?contac t_id=104

Best regards,
Steve Berson

TotalSonic

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2004, 11:50:05 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 04:47

illynoise wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 01:55

 
Someone mentioned Tom C.  Where is he at?  
Base Jase
Illynoise


Tom's at Sterling Sound here in NYC -
 http://www.sterling-sound.com/home/engineers/eng_info?contac t_id=104

Best regards,
Steve Berson


Ya gotta love Tom's equipment list!
quote:


Equipment List
Category:           
2 of everything on Ted's list           

Description:
Plus mine are bigger and shinier

Smile
          

jfrigo

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2004, 02:39:43 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 11:07

I may be wrong but I strongly suspect not all that much is being done to Dr. Dre's mixes in mastering.


One of the most important factors in hip hop is the arrangement. If you notice, the "biggest" sounding records are often the ones with somewhat sparse arrangements. The more stuff you pack in there, the more difficult it will be to create the impact typically desired from the style. It ends up sounding smaller and quieter when it's packed full, but when each part has a place to breathe and the sounds are well chosen, you can make it jump out of the speakers.

Often, an up and coming producer wants a "huge" bass so they pack a bunch of low on everything, but actually, some well chosen low end on certain things, some mid bass on others, some mid range for clarity, definition, and "snap", and not so much bass on some things that blend with the bassier elements will actually create the impression of a big, powerful bass more than choosing very bassy sounds or adding lots of low EQ. Once you have a mix stuffed full of extraneous arrangement ideas and loaded with low end EQ, it's harder to make it pop in mastering, and the limiter is spending all its time coping with that low end.

This is where multiband dynamics actually can be of service. It's not for every mix as some advertisements would have you believe, but this kind of lopsided mix is where it actually is worth trying. Also, in mastering when a producer says "bass", sometimes he means "impact" and if you add some mid bass and definition and get the bass drum pounding you in the chest, they are much happier than the soup you create by adding more low bass to an already messy low end. Doing this and being able to pull out the crack of the snare (and sometimes some more impact from a full bodied sound) usually puts a smile on their faces.

Somebody like Dre knows all of this, and the mixes he presents already sound great. A little nip and tuck, some color if necessary, and a few dB on the pekas and you have a slammin' record. I  recently did a record for Johnny "J", a writer and producer who is best know for several records of work with Tupac, and his punchy drum sounds and well spaced arrangements helped mastering go very smoothly. It was nice that both he and the mixer realized that too much limiting purely for level would negatively impact that punch. We leaned to the conservative side on several tracks to preserve the punch in the chest that the bass drum and snare created.
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bblackwood

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2004, 12:16:59 PM »

jfrigo wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 13:39

I  recently did a record for Johnny "J", a writer and producer who is best know for several records of work with Tupac, and his punchy drum sounds and well spaced arrangements helped mastering go very smoothly. It was nice that both he and the mixer realized that too much limiting purely for level would negatively impact that punch. We leaned to the conservative side on several tracks to preserve the punch in the chest that the bass drum and snare created.

Cool! Who was the artist? When was/will it be released?
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Brad Blackwood
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Toby M

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2004, 01:34:56 PM »

Forget about Dre.

But i have to agree i can't his production rocks and is estimated to rule the charts for years to come.

A lot of his sound is in the production but one should not forget that he always mixes from A studer A827 2" uses a S.S.L and really slams the Quad compressor before putting it all down to D.A.T He's never been a in the box guy and i don't think he will be.Nothing digital before ending up on D.A.T

His vocals goes from an Sony C800G thought a Neve 1073.

Yours /Toby
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jfrigo

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Re: Hip Hop Mastering
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2004, 07:25:02 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 09:16

jfrigo wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 13:39

I  recently did a record for Johnny "J", a writer and producer who is best know for several records of work with Tupac, and his punchy drum sounds and well spaced arrangements helped mastering go very smoothly. It was nice that both he and the mixer realized that too much limiting purely for level would negatively impact that punch. We leaned to the conservative side on several tracks to preserve the punch in the chest that the bass drum and snare created.

Cool! Who was the artist? When was/will it be released?



The artist's name is Napoleon and it's a 2 CD set that will be released on Johnny J's label, Klockwork, but I don't know when. One song is going to be featured in an unpcoming video about Tupac I'm told, but I don't know the details. Napoleon also did some work with Tupac back in the day. This new project is produced by and the music written by Johnny J and lyrics written by rapper, Napoleon. It's quite musical within the style with a real bass player on many of the tracks (Moog bass on others), and many other parts that are played all the way through instead of 8 bar loops for 3:30. It will be interesting to see how it's received.
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