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Author Topic: Do you process to tape or not....  (Read 12242 times)

grantis

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2010, 03:30:30 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 14:18

j.hall wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 12:31


you can not possibly think that a person just starting out making records is worthy of considering themselves a "peer" with 20+ year vet.....


Just like i mentioned before all this experience very loosely correlates with records quality. Of cause there are limits, but lets say even 3+ years of experience is enough to re-qualify from related area for a talented inidividual.

Having 10+ 20+ 30+ 40+ 50+ does not mean anything.
Majority of the ppl could have bean 10 or 20 years in the business this is not something you should be granted a medal for.

That could just mean:
1) Local market don't have enough competition and there is a room for everyone who wants.
2) You are successful marketer and found your target segment (while producing for example cheap and bad recordings)
3) You are a nepotist (like you don't hesitate to show here regularly) and you are part of certain friend community which is off basis and considers themselves pro and competent while could be in fact non-pro and incompetent and producing very average records.

Should I even mention that profits and ROI are not the best measurment unit for the talant?

Personally I saw so many sound engineers who just DO NOT GROW after certain point. Or it can simply depend on personality: some ppl are just ignorant while others are curios, some got absolute hearing and other didn't.
Music is a very complicated art and you cannot simplify all this and measure primarily with a number of years.

Have a nice day.




There is no amount of help available to someone as naive as you are sir (or ma'am, we still don't know).  

That was possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on these forums.  

Go troll at gearslutz and leave the good people here alone.  
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Grant Craig
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Gabriel F

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2010, 03:48:13 pm »

Maybe you belong to that group of persons believing that they are more talented or experienced than they really are.

Dont take it as an attack, but you said that the tracking was good and you sounded surprised because the tracks sounds almost finished for you? because they are processed. Reading you i assume your threshold of quality is pretty high, so its confusing that you said the tracking was good while for others is just above average. So maybe you aint that good or experienced to discern a good tracking from an average one.
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h2o2

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2010, 03:54:02 pm »

Gabriel F wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 14:48

Maybe you belong to that group of persons believing that they are more talented or experienced than they really are.


It is pretty possible, the problem is there is really no way to know this for sure. it's a personal call of everyone...

Gabriel F wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 14:48


Dont take it as an attack, but you said that the tracking was good and you sounded surprised because the tracks sounds almost finished for you? because they are processed. Reading you i assume your threshold of quality is pretty high, so its confusing that you said the tracking was good while for others is just above average. So maybe you aint that good or experienced to discern a good tracking from an average one.

I lied. I tried to be "anglosaxon friendly", honestly.Smile
I didn't like snare (i mentioned separately)
UPD: I also dismissed toms completely. Apart from that i was not very impressed with a bass. Had to work a lot on it.
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Gabriel F

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2010, 04:08:35 pm »

"I didnt like the snare" sounds like a highly subjective opinion and without any fundaments about why you dont like it. While you were arguing the whole time trying to make music production an objective science, and asking for fundaments about our opinions.

You didnt like the snare because is badly tracked? Or because you believe other snare sound may fit better? Do you believe the problem is at the source (the snare), do you believe that processsing to tape, or summing 2 snare microphones to tape would have made a significant change for worse?. Would you have make a better mix if the snare wasnt processed? What if the bass would have been processed to sound the way you like, would you have complained about having to work less to make sound right?


Saying that we cant know for shure if anyone is a good enginner because is a personal obsevation, is admitting that this businness isnt as objective and exact like you said before. But i believe we can tell a good enginner from a bad one no matter how subjective our opinions may be. if we could not then there is no point in doing this IMP, there is no point in trying to get better and imporve because we could not apreciate what differences makes a good enginner.
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johnR

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2010, 04:15:37 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 20:18



Having 10+ 20+ 30+ 40+ 50+ does not mean anything.
Majority of the ppl could have bean 10 or 20 years in the business this is not something you should be granted a medal for.

That could just mean:
1) Local market don't have enough competition and there is a room for everyone who wants.
2) You are successful marketer and found your target segment (while producing for example cheap and bad recordings)
3) You are a nepotist (like you don't hesitate to show here regularly) and you are part of certain friend community which is off basis and considers themselves pro and competent while could be in fact non-pro and incompetent and producing very average records.


And you, sir/madam, are a troll.
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h2o2

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2010, 04:27:38 pm »

Gabriel F wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:08

"I didnt like the snare" sounds like a highly subjective opinion and without any fundaments about why you dont like it. While you were arguing the whole time trying to make music production an objective science, and asking for fundaments about our opinions.

You didnt like the snare because is badly tracked? Or because you believe other snare sound may fit better? Do you believe the problem is at the source (the snare), do you believe that processsing to tape, or summing 2 snare microphones to tape would have made a significant change for worse?. Would you have make a better mix if the snare wasnt processed? What if the bass would have been processed to sound the way you like, would you have complained about having to work less to make sound right?


Saying that we cant know for shure if anyone is a good enginner because is a personal obsevation, is admitting that this businness isnt as objective and exact like you said before. But i believe we can tell a good enginner from a bad one no matter how subjective our opinions may be. if we could not then there is no point in doing this IMP, there is no point in trying to get better and imporve because we could not apreciate what differences makes a good enginner.


You are trying (just like many others here) to throw everything in the same basket, which creates a mess...
So please be careful and separate the questions of art from purely practical questions (like taping with effects)...

In fact it might sound surprising but art can be analyzed.
I'm curious (really) Do such profession exist in USA?: "Musical critic", so those ppl usually do is to analyze art and also dictating trends in art.

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h2o2

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2010, 04:48:25 pm »

Gabriel F wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:08

"
You didnt like the snare because is badly tracked? Or because you believe other snare sound may fit better? Do you believe the problem is at the source (the snare), do you believe that processsing to tape, or summing 2 snare microphones to tape would have made a significant change for worse?. Would you have make a better mix if the snare wasnt processed? What if the bass would have been processed to sound the way you like, would you have complained about having to work less to make sound right?


Could wee just postpone this discussion or do this in another thread later?
I can give some answers regarding snare:
Artistic comment (feel free to discard or go in your own way):
It was just too high pitched, was short and didn't have enough springs.

Now technical part:
Blending two snare mics in recording is very bad idea, because there will be no nudging and no phase reverse.

>Would you have make a better mix if the snare wasnt processed?
No doubt, if transients smeared you cannot undo this. This is very clinical case of snare, there is practically nothing you can do apart from replacing it  (with blend)

>would you have complained about having to work less to make >sound right?
We are not motivated by money here and don't hesitate to work more, we are nation of principals and ideals:)

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grantis

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #67 on: March 10, 2010, 05:00:37 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:48


Blending two snare mics in recording is very bad idea, because there will be no nudging and no phase reverse.


Check the phase before printing.  That's a FUNDAMENTAL skill of recording.

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:48


We are not motivated by money here and don't hesitate to work more, we are nation of principals and ideals:)


Boy i tell ya, if strict principles and ideals made good records, a lot of (legendary) rock bands wouldn't exist.

Money drives progress in all facets of life.  Period.  Science, Medicine, Recording, Technology.  EVERYTHING.  Enjoy your nation of mediocrity.  Wherever it is, I hope you have good beer there.  Doesn't seem like there's much else to do. (Well and troll on the internet I suppose).

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Grant Craig
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Gabriel F

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2010, 05:03:44 pm »

Blending 2 mics is not a bad idea if you know what you are doing. You dont need to nudge anything if you know what you are doing, you can flip polarity at the console and choose wich position works best. That is just basic engineering skills.

You are the one complicating things and talking things wich doesnt make sense at all. You somehow mixed stereotypes of country idiosyncracies and pseudo philosophy with enginnering skills.

Its a fact that if you know what you are doing its a good thing to get the sounds you want to tape. Its a pretty standard way of working and has been for decades. There is no discussion, people have worked that way for decades and will continue to do it if they get the desired results, no matter if you think its bad practice.

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h2o2

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #69 on: March 10, 2010, 05:25:49 pm »

grantis wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:00

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:48


Blending two snare mics in recording is very bad idea, because there will be no nudging and no phase reverse.


Check the phase before printing.  That's a FUNDAMENTAL skill of recording.

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:48


We are not motivated by money here and don't hesitate to work more, we are nation of principals and ideals:)


Boy i tell ya, if strict principles and ideals made good records, a lot of (legendary) rock bands wouldn't exist.

Money drives progress in all facets of life.  Period.  Science, Medicine, Recording, Technology.  EVERYTHING.  Enjoy your nation of mediocrity.  Wherever it is, I hope you have good beer there.  Doesn't seem like there's much else to do. (Well and troll on the internet I suppose).



Ouch you are so dogmatic... You don't even see besic possibilities and logic.

1) Nudging of tracks is not done for phase only. You may want to add pre-delay to bottom snare mic to separate attack of top mic from sustain of bottom.
2) I just wonder how many reasonable ppl are checking phase of botton vs top snare mic before recording? Smile they are using phazoscope for that? maybe cancellation test or the ropes?


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grantis

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2010, 05:36:23 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:25


Ouch you are so dogmatic... You don't even see besic possibilities and logic.


Nope, I see Pro Tools.

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:25


1) Nudging of tracks is not done for phase only. You may want to add pre-delay to bottom snare mic to separate attack of top mic from sustain of bottom.



Are you implying that when you place snare samples to supplement the original track, you don't sample align them?  

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:25


2) I just wonder how many reasonable ppl are checking phase of botton vs top snare mic before recording? Smile they are using phazoscope for that? maybe cancellation test or the ropes?



I would guess...all moderately experienced engineers check phase every single time.

Personally...I use ears.  Saves me loads of money on scopes and such.
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Grant Craig
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Gabriel F

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2010, 05:44:48 pm »

Are you being serious or just joking with us?.

It seems that you are a)too insecure to make any artistic decision at tracking or b)You dont understand the process of record production.

You can use nudging or eq or compression,etc to solve any problem you like. But if the enginner has a sound in his mind he can print that to tape, because he knows he wont need to nudge the bottom mic, for example, to get that sound (by the way i never heard anyone delaying the bottom mic). If i mix i like to get the tracks sorted, and not lose time and perspective by deciding wich of the x number of microphones tracks of the same take its the sound the band its after.

Do you record guitar direct and them reamp? Do you record drums with vdrums and then use samples? do you take bass direct and then reamp? Do you record vocals with 4 microphones and then choose at mix time wich one works best? That insecure are you to commit to tape?
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h2o2

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2010, 05:47:18 pm »

grantis wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:36


Are you implying that when you place snare samples to supplement the original track, you don't sample align them?  


I sample align them on the first wave positive peak.
If i use multiple sample i can pre-delay couple of them to achieve richer sustain and less cluttering. I try to make them still aligned more or less on the consequent peaks.

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h2o2

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2010, 06:02:05 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:47

grantis wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 16:36


Are you implying that when you place snare samples to supplement the original track, you don't sample align them?  


I sample align them on the first wave positive peak.
If i use multiple sample i can pre-delay couple of them to achieve richer sustain and less cluttering. I try to make them still aligned more or less on the consequent peaks.



oh yes and i do pitch shift as well, usually downwards.
with the simplest algoritm which changes duration as a bonus. So you will get longer sustains. And you will get really densier snares because of richer spectrum. Can you do that in recording?
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Gabriel F

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2010, 06:14:36 pm »

No, but you cant do it if you dont use samples. Unless you gate every drum hit and them pitch shift, and creating a phase mess. Not to mention the ugly artifacts of pitch shifting and streching algorithms. And its not a common practice among good enginners. They usually get good sounds at tracking so they dont need to do complicated and unnecesary processing wich creates weird artifacts at mix time.

one thing i like is to record all the songs at 120 bmp, and then choose the righ tempo streching the audio at mix time. Its way too complicated to decide wich tempo the song workd best at tracking time. Razz.
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