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Author Topic: Do you process to tape or not....  (Read 11350 times)

KB_S1

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2010, 05:33:42 pm »

I should further qualify my previous point about not using much eq when recording.

I don't tend to use much when mixing things I have recorded either.
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h2o2

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2010, 05:53:17 pm »

Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 16:24


Obviously experience alone is no proof of competence, but it is a start. There are very few people working in the industry long term, who aren't good at what they do. I also believe it is foolish not to learn from those that have been making great records for years.


Define "great records"? This is purely personal concept, if you want to achieve constructive discussion you need to dismiss personal and subjective from arguments.

Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 16:24


ou seem to be dismissing the logic and strength of the arguments offered by others members of this forum


There is no dismissal since every single argument is recorded and you still can read it, can you ?
After you have arguments expressed it is perfectly ok to challenge them and see what is left.


Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 16:24


However if I can hear something that's still not right, I don't hesitate to add eq or compression as needed.


Can you please give any examples of things what can be not right?
Just to understand your point a bit more? low-mids issues are fixed with mic placement for example.

Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 16:24


If you know what you're wanting, why would you wait until the mix to get that sound?


maybe because I want to listen all tracks carefully for example?
mixing is complicated interdependent process. not only the track you are recording matters the rest of tracks affect decisions you will make on certain track.

Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 16:24


I was recently given some songs to mix that had 80 tracks of audio. It was like wading through mud, just getting started. Thinks like multiple guitar parts, each recorded with 3 mics on 3 tracks. If they'd committed to bussing each part to a single track while tracking, it would have made the mix much quicker and taken very little extra time while recording.


I agree on this one. But this is not the same problem we are discussing here. Pre-select tracks which more or less work are perfectly fine prior mixing time.
UPD: i dont agree on bussing idea obviously. because this is a good example of crucial decision made too early. Yes it is difficult to decide strategy and proportions of the mics to use during mixing. But doing that in recording is completely blind call!

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Greg Dixon

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2010, 06:11:44 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 09:53


UPD: i dont agree on bussing idea obviously. because this is a good example of crucial decision made too early. Yes it is difficult to decide strategy and proportions of the mics to use during mixing. But doing that in recording is completely blind call!




Why is it a blind call? If you know what you're trying to achieve, it isn't a blind call, it's an educated decision.
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h2o2

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2010, 06:52:28 pm »

Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 17:11

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 09:53


UPD: i dont agree on bussing idea obviously. because this is a good example of crucial decision made too early. Yes it is difficult to decide strategy and proportions of the mics to use during mixing. But doing that in recording is completely blind call!




Why is it a blind call? If you know what you're trying to achieve, it isn't a blind call, it's an educated decision.

Guitar layering is very complicated thing it might involve experementation alot. I doubt if there is the quick and best strategy here. It often  a matter of difficult compromises.
For example bussing 3 mics together without EQ-ing low-mids and selecting bites would be no go decision for me. And if you will start to EQ them during tracking it would be very time consuming.
And you also have other tracks which might affect your decision. What if your bite frequency will compet with vocal?
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mcsnare

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2010, 08:53:30 pm »

Reasoning and logic doesn't have a lot to do with why experienced engineers record processed tracks. It goes like this:

In the old days when most recordings were done with an ensemble of musicians playing together in a studio, engineers learned very quickly the way to be in demand was to make everything sound amazing and almost finished as early on as possible. This impresses the producer and the musicians. Win win. It also clarifies what might be needed in the way of overdubs in a much better way than working with basically flat tracks. Myself and everybody else I knew used to practically use every resource available when doing a 'rough mix' at the end of the tracking session in hopes of making an impression that could turn into a mixing gig.
I guess the scenario is different these days. Now, with so many folks recording in a simplified non traditional studio environment, one may not have lots of preamps and compressors or even a big enough space to record a whole group. This situation is probably part of what makes it less common in some circles to hype everything to tape. I'd guess not having a producer and maybe not very high expectations of the band is part of it too. Not having the pressure of the clock rolling in a high priced studio, blah blah blah. Y'all get the picture.
I think it's a bit telling of the times that so many, including myself, have remarked at how well the tracking was done on this IMP 24 tune. Back in the day I would have considered it a workable but not particularly impressive recording.
Just my perspective.


Dave

grantis

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2010, 10:40:10 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 15:52


This is true, because sound quality is not a primary concern for us.                                      



I think you may have hit your own nail on its head.
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meverylame

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2010, 11:55:34 pm »

h2o2 wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 18:52



Guitar layering is very complicated thing it might involve experementation alot. I doubt if there is the quick and best strategy here. It often  a matter of difficult compromises.
For example bussing 3 mics together without EQ-ing low-mids and selecting bites would be no go decision for me. And if you will start to EQ them during tracking it would be very time consuming.
And you also have other tracks which might affect your decision. What if your bite frequency will compet with vocal?



Hmm... on the other end of the spectrum.... Why not just turn 2 mics off? If I have 3 mics on an amp AND I'm worried about EQ, I'm not doing something right.
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dconstruction

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2010, 12:16:25 am »

mcsnare wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 19:53

Reasoning and logic doesn't have a lot to do with why experienced engineers record processed tracks. It goes like this:

In the old days ...
I guess the scenario is different these days. ...
Y'all get the picture....
I think it's a bit telling of the times that so many, including myself, have remarked at how well the tracking was done on this IMP 24 tune. Back in the day I would have considered it a workable but not particularly impressive recording.
Just my perspective.


Dave





I appreciate and resemble these remarks.  I work in a room that's  16' by 17' with 8' ceilings.  I built it out myself, and I made errors.  I put in $13k worth of finish and gear (that amount scarily grows each quarter), and I'm nowhere close to what I want, but worried about the ROI every month.  I have clients who cannot afford my extraordinarily reasonable $35/hour rate.  I lose gigs to more experienced engineers and others that charge far less (how?).  My passion for this gig can't pay the rent, but consumes my spare time.  I have lost girlfriends over the studio (seriously).  I would KILL for the ability to time-machine back into my twenties, before the mortgage and the "career", and call one of you guys up and beg for work.

Here's what I feel:

Daniel Farris engineered and (co?)produced a best-of album with Annie Clark, a work of stunning creative richness and (dare I say it) gender-expectation-defying shredder brilliance.  He's chimed in.

Dave McNair's second most recent Tweet is "Did some test mastering today and the most excellent and ever so rockin' new album from Slash."  Slash?  Seriously?  Even if it sucks - and I probably will think it does - that man defined guitar for a decade.  A personally important decade, for anyone born in the mid-Seventies like me.  He's chimed in.

Kyle Mann seems to have a burgeoning career.  Grant is trusted by  J. Hall, and I trust J. - having shared a meal in his kitchen with his family, and an album or two.  J., by the way, is a freaking genius - who unfortunately knows he is a genius.  But get him drinking and he's not so bad.  They've all chimed in.

This might seem like a tangent.  Good Lord, our Eastern philosophy logician won't know what to make of it - emotion! language! subjectivity! - but it's really not.  This forum is full of such wondrous experience and amazing humility.  I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank you all.  For being awesome, and reasonable, and careful, and passionate.  And teachers.

L
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NelsonL

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2010, 01:27:21 am »

h2o2 wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 11:59

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 12:35


seem to think we're having a debate.

Rather than trying to prove anything to you, I'm simply suggesting that what you accept to be "the right way to do things," might be a minority opinion. Majority opinions, I realize, are not necessarily more valid. However, I've improved my craft tremendously by learning who to filter out here, who to listen to, and how to benefit from seemingly contradictory information: trying things for myself.

To be blunt, my thoughts and reasoning were more focused on not getting into heated arguments with possibly unstable internet cranks. Not that you're necessarily that person, but 'they' are certainly out there, aren't they?

Anecdotally, I had the pleasure of meeting an Abbey Road trained engineer (now a producer) at Cello one time, as he was producing my friend's band. Unlike you, that producer uses EQ and compression during tracking. If we presume for a moment, that you and this producer/engineer have the exact same skill level and experience, then you've cancelled each other's 'vote' out in the grand debate over great audio.

I guess that makes me the tie breaker.



NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 12:35


seem to think we're having a debate.


I think is just a matter of professionalism to provide good argumentation in comment in professional community.

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 12:35


Rather than trying to prove anything to you, I'm simply suggesting that what you accept to be "the right way to do things," might be a minority opinion.


I can accept however is difficult to check representatively and more or less objectively.

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 12:35


To be blunt, my thoughts and reasoning were more focused on not getting into heated arguments with possibly unstable internet cranks.


What harm can this make? While not entering discussion you are not doing any impact and effectiveness of the discussion is close to zero. While everybody is happy this is purely "false safety" thing and a big deal of hypocrisy.

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 12:35


Anecdotally, I had the pleasure of meeting an Abbey Road trained engineer (now a producer) at Cello one time, as he was producing my friend's band. Unlike you, that producer uses EQ and compression during tracking. If we presume for a moment, that you and this producer/engineer have the exact same skill level and experience, then you've cancelled each other's 'vote' out in the grand debate over great audio.


Here comes the catch...
You make decisions without listening to argumentation from both sides. Constructive discussions are usually made by exchanging series of arguments by both parties. You are absolutely right that at the end it is personal decision of everyone to take whichever party they want. But it is important not to forget that doing this without listening to argumentation is a very narrow decision.

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 12:35


you've cancelled each other's 'vote'


Cancelling may occur only in case we will have a dilema, this is in a case when number of arguments is more or less equal and they have the same strength. But the guy could just have told you: I never really thought why I am doing it like this, maybe it might be a good idea to try the other way around.
in case of dilema, if you dont find argument which is closer to you you might consider using weight.



My point is that the quality of the "argumentation" has no actual relationship to the quality of the methodology or the results. Ergo, it is pointless to have the sort of debate that you clearly think is so vital.

I simply do not "make decisions without listening to argumentation from both sides." This is an illogical assumption, it is in fact, the exact mistake that I was suggesting you might wish to avoid in your ignorance. I specifically mentioned that the best course upon receiving contradictory advice from multiple respected sources, is to try things for yourself.

I don't think anyone owes you any professional courtesy as you have either willfully or ignorantly misinterpreted not only the spirit,  but the substance of the responses you've received here.

One of the first things you're taught in constructing a discourse is that broad, sweeping generalizations like  "because of sexism, racism, agism, or any other "ism" currently popular in US," weaken your argument and demean the venue.

Additionally, every time you refer to the East, you're again making broad, grandiose generalizations and reinforcing  Orientalist stereotypes. This too weakens your rhetorical stance as there is no singular "East" nor is there one "West." These are outdated constructs, and not particularly useful or relevant to the discussion here.

When you begin statements with "we" you weaken your argument by presuming to speak for an incredibly large segment of the population. Alternatively, if you meant to define "we" less broadly, then you failed to do so.

Furthermore, while I commend your multilingualism, I suspect that your reading comprehension needs improvement as you continue to misrepresent my views as promoting a certain technique.

I would never tell anyone that they must use X during tracking.

It is intellectually irresponsible to tell people you don't know, and who's work you've never knowingly heard, that they should never use Y during tracking based on a theoretical argument.

Results trump theory in this discipline, and yet I agree with you when you say that we should not discount minority opinions.

In fact, I said that first and you ignored it, then you told me that I had offered no thoughts or ideas, and then you co-opted that idea as if it were  your own, when clearly it's just common sense.
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Gabriel F

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2010, 02:37:33 am »

h202 wrote:
Define "great records"? This is purely personal concept, if you want to achieve constructive discussion you need to dismiss personal and subjective from arguments.



Lots of decisions about tracking and mixing are based on highly subjetive apreciations, so you cant try to discuss audio production as an exact science.

Some people have a vision about what sound they are after, and have the experience to make most of that sound at the tracking stage. If you have that vision and experience or talent, i believe its the best way to make a record. Like you said some tracks affects the  way other tracks sounds and that can be said about the performances being recorded too, its not the same for the artist to track overdubs hearing a mix with no direction than tracking to a good rough mix with the core of the overall sound already decided. And for me performnances are way more important than getting the perfect blend between a multimiked guitar amp.

You talk like mixing is sacred in the recording process and tracking having less importance.
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Devin Knutson

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Re: Do you process to tape or not....
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2010, 03:01:01 am »

Hammers, planes, saws...   These are all tools.

Compression, Gating, EQ...   These are also tools.

Would you begin building a house before deciding what you wanted it to look like?  Would you delay nailing the floor down until the roof was on in order to preserve your possibilities?  Would you wait until the walls were up before cutting your studs to the proper length?

Of course not.  These things would be exceedingly stupid.

If I am building a house, and I can get lumber that is perfectly straight, I will use it.  Otherwise I will reach for a plane.   If I can get lumber that is exactly the right length, I'll use it.  Otherwise I'll reach for a saw.

When tracking music, if I can capture sounds that fit perfectly  into my vision of the recording using just the room, a microphone and a preamp, that's what I'll use.

Otherwise, I'll reach for my tools.
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Greg Dixon

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2010, 03:13:54 am »

meverylame wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 15:55

h2o2 wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 18:52



Guitar layering is very complicated thing it might involve experementation alot. I doubt if there is the quick and best strategy here. It often  a matter of difficult compromises.
For example bussing 3 mics together without EQ-ing low-mids and selecting bites would be no go decision for me. And if you will start to EQ them during tracking it would be very time consuming.
And you also have other tracks which might affect your decision. What if your bite frequency will compet with vocal?



Hmm... on the other end of the spectrum.... Why not just turn 2 mics off? If I have 3 mics on an amp AND I'm worried about EQ, I'm not doing something right.

Exactly. I might add that the tracks I was referring to earlier, were very well recorded, so there was absolutely no reason to print them separately.
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j.hall

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2010, 01:31:13 pm »

Greg Dixon wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 16:24

h2o2 wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 05:20


I'm sorry but i don't like to tell you my personal info. This might be because of sexism, racism, agism, or any other "ism" currently popular in US.

j.hall seems more tolerant of this than the other moderators on PSW, but it's usual practice around here to have your real name in your profile. The discussions are usual more civil when people have to actually 'own' what they say, rather than being anonymous.




look man, the bottom line here, is that you have no leg to stand on.  blowing off a few simple questions, actually answers them.  i couldn't care any less where you are from, how old you are, and what you do for a living.  i couldn't care any less about this "debate" from the stand point of changing your mind (which i've said before), or even from the stand point of puffing my chest up to say, "look what i've done......"

experience matters, period!

you can not possibly think that a person just starting out making records is worthy of considering themselves a "peer" with 20+ year vet.....

i wasn't trying to "size you up", i was actually trying to help.......

this is pointless, i'm done

have a great day!
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j.hall

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2010, 02:25:05 pm »

mcsnare wrote on Tue, 09 March 2010 19:53


I think it's a bit telling of the times that so many, including myself, have remarked at how well the tracking was done on this IMP 24 tune. Back in the day I would have considered it a workable but not particularly impressive recording.
Just my perspective.


Dave




the engineer that tracked this project is a friend of mine and a solid engineer.  that being said, and not knowing ANY of the details of this particular session (heck, he might not have worked on it at all.....) i would say that these tracks are barely passable.  especially knowing what his typical output is, these tracks are pretty bad to be honest.
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h2o2

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Re: IMP 24 BEGINS
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2010, 03:18:56 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 10 March 2010 12:31


you can not possibly think that a person just starting out making records is worthy of considering themselves a "peer" with 20+ year vet.....


Just like i mentioned before all this experience very loosely correlates with records quality. Of cause there are limits, but lets say even 3+ years of experience is enough to re-qualify from related area for a talented inidividual.

Having 10+ 20+ 30+ 40+ 50+ does not mean anything.
Majority of the ppl could have bean 10 or 20 years in the business this is not something you should be granted a medal for.

That could just mean:
1) Local market don't have enough competition and there is a room for everyone who wants.
2) You are successful marketer and found your target segment (while producing for example cheap and bad recordings)
3) You are a nepotist (like you don't hesitate to show here regularly) and you are part of certain friend community which is off basis and considers themselves pro and competent while could be in fact non-pro and incompetent and producing very average records.

Should I even mention that profits and ROI are not the best measurment unit for the talant?

Personally I saw so many sound engineers who just DO NOT GROW after certain point. Or it can simply depend on personality: some ppl are just ignorant while others are curios, some got absolute hearing and other didn't.
Music is a very complicated art and you cannot simplify all this and measure primarily with a number of years.

Have a nice day.
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