Topic: Is it just me......??? (Read 4444 times)

OTR-jkl · « **on:** July 30, 2004, 04:38:22 PM »

....or has anyone else ever noticed this...?

While I'm creating the file for the Master and editing the tops of each track, if I put the edge of the object right up to the start of the waveform with a really short fade-in (I'm zoomed way in so I can see that I'm not touching any of the first "note"), when I back the cursor up and hit play it almost sounds like there is a tiny portion of the first "note" being cut off - even though I know its not. I'm not talking about Track IDs here - just editing.

It seems like there's something about leaving just a small portion of noise in front of the first note that actually sounds good as compared to a "cold", abrupt start right on it. Maybe it makes it a tad softer or something...?

Anybody else?

Level · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2004, 07:08:39 PM »

I use 3 full frames at 30FPS at the top of all tracks of silence. This is 0.1000 sec. It gives many CD players a chance to catch the opening of the first sound when going track to track. On symphonic Music..I usually give all 30 frames to catch the breaths of the wind instument musicians.

Experiment with your head edits. Different CD players cue up slightly different.

bblackwood · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2004, 09:57:28 AM »

What Level says is true, of course - nothing in the redbook standard dictates how quickly a CD player 'un-mutes', which is really a problem when setting track IDs on live records...

That being said, I realize that you asked about something different. Sometimes it does seem that you're cutting something off, even if it visually looks like you are not. I figured out long ago to trust your ears, not your eyes, when editing/top-n-tailing tracks.

MASSIVE Mastering · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2004, 11:43:35 AM »

I go a bit longer - 15 frames (at 75FPS). Most people won't miss that 1/5 of a second, and it gives computer-based players (some of which, including WMP are really bad about cutting off chunks) something to chew on.

bobkatz · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2004, 04:12:23 PM »

OTR-jkl wrote on Fri, 30 July 2004 16:38

....or has anyone else ever noticed this...?

It seems like there's something about leaving just a small portion of noise in front of the first note that actually sounds good as compared to a "cold", abrupt start right on it. Maybe it makes it a tad softer or something...?

Anybody else?

I think the more noise there is mixed in with the transient start of the note, the more chance it will probably sound funny if you cut it real tight. Because the ear hears the noise coming in even over the start of the note. Also, if it's acoustic and not electric in origin (a real acoustic guitar player as opposed to a synthesizer), the air before the note is VERY important.

But then there's the dilemma of how fast to fade in on the note or the musician's breath or hand movement. If you do it too slowly, you call attention to the noise, but too fast and it sounds abrupt. There are no absolute rules, but I definitely NEVER ASSUME that a tight cut in will necessarily sound better than a slow fadeup. There is no rote fadeup (or fadedown) around here, gotta listen to and see what's the best approach for each one, including possibly even running roomtone (rare but not to be forgotten how powerful a solution that roomtone (or tape hiss) can be, especially on an acoustic record.

TotalSonic · « **Reply #5 on:** August 02, 2004, 01:12:21 AM »

I'm glad this has come up - does anyone have a particular personal rule they use for dealing with the widely varying CD player unmute times? I've mainly have been going with more of a "feel" thing - especially since so many albums I've dealt with have one track going directly to another so that positioning has to be a compromise between unmute times or possibly getting to much of the previous track when they cue the id - but was wondering what people were doing regarding how many frames they like to have prior to the program start for their pq track indexes.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2004, 09:39:37 AM »

Unless it's a live record, I have mine set to 6 frames (about 80 milliseconds) and haven't had any issues with complaints about un-mute times...

TotalSonic · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2004, 10:45:53 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 14:39

Unless it's a live record, I have mine set to 6 frames (about 80 milliseconds) and haven't had any issues with complaints about un-mute times...

Brad / everyone -
I'm curious - For live records which do you tend to go for: precise start point that might get it's start clipped off from players with longer unmutes (and I think a lot of car stereos are the worse offenders) or moving it back to the point where you might get the end of the previous track when cueing?? I guess I tend to go for moving it back as far as possible without getting any more than a whisper of the fadeout from the previous track - but I've had to move pq points for clients once in a blue moon when I've done this.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

OTR-jkl · « **Reply #8 on:** August 02, 2004, 01:45:50 PM »

Quote:

was wondering what people were doing regarding how many frames they like to have prior to the program start for their pq track indexes.

Usually 5-7 frames (at 30 fps) but, as was stated previously, its a "feel" thing. I always listen to it...

Quote:

I'm curious - For live records which do you tend to go for: precise start point that might get it's start clipped off from players with longer unmutes (and I think a lot of car stereos are the worse offenders) or moving it back to the point where you might get the end of the previous track when cueing??

I (almost) always go for earier (moving it backward). I think its more important to catch all of the beginning of each tune. BUT, client's wishes rule...

Quote:

But then there's the dilemma of how fast to fade in on the note or the musician's breath or hand movement. If you do it too slowly, you call attention to the noise, but too fast and it sounds abrupt. There are no absolute rules, but I definitely NEVER ASSUME that a tight cut in will necessarily sound better than a slow fadeup. There is no rote fadeup (or fadedown) around here, gotta listen to and see what's the best approach for each one

I totally agree, Bob.

bobkatz · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2004, 05:22:16 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 01:12

I'm glad this has come up - does anyone have a particular personal rule they use for dealing with the widely varying CD player unmute times? I've mainly have been going with more of a "feel" thing - especially since so many albums I've dealt with have one track going directly to another so that positioning has to be a compromise between unmute times or possibly getting to much of the previous track when they cue the id - but was wondering what people were doing regarding how many frames they like to have prior to the program start for their pq track indexes.

I assume you mean "unmute" times when hitting play from stop or from pause. I measure my times in SMPTE (30 fps) frames... In an absolute emergency I've gone down to 1 frame but this is VERY dicey, and you're almost sure to upcut on some model player or other. You're pretty safe with 3 frames and up Index 1 offset with any STANDARD CD player manufactured in the last 5 years, to my experience.

HOWEVER, DVD players, computer players and redbook CDs are adding a whole new level of pain in the a*** sunofab*&*&(& cr&(&)&*(. And the crisis is getting so bad that:

a) OVER 50% of the players and growing rapidly cannot play through audio in Index Zero without muting. The "real and true" CD player that will not mute in the pause (index 0) is a vanishing breed. And I don't know who to complain to?

b) The cuing time of DVD players (as Totalsonic wrote about) is REAL bad. I think it is even greater than 10 frames or it will upcut the music. We used to count on 10 frames offset, but I'd almost advise 15 frames in this world of DVD players and audio CDs.

I'm mad as hell and don't know where to take this complaint to!

Level · « **Reply #10 on:** August 03, 2004, 05:51:07 PM »

Mr. Katz wrote:

Quote:

a) OVER 50% of the players and growing rapidly cannot play through audio in Index Zero without muting. The "real and true" CD player that will not mute in the pause (index 0) is a vanishing breed. And I don't know who to complain to?

b) The cuing time of DVD players (as Totalsonic wrote about) is REAL bad. I think it is even greater than 10 frames or it will upcut the music. We used to count on 10 frames offset, but I'd almost advise 15 frames in this world of DVD players and audio CDs.

I'm mad as hell and don't know where to take this complaint to!

Bob, thank you for pointing this out.

I have 3 DVD players (actually 7 if you count the computer...and duplications of models)

Toshiba 3950. The audiophiles are going nutso over this 60 dollar machine for redbook playback. I will admit, it sounds surprisingly good. Great if I may..

No problem with 3 frames.

Panasonic DVD F85. (Multi-format) It too has no problem at 3 frames.

Older APEX AD-600 It takes forever to read the subtext..but starts correctly with 3 frames.

Since you brought this up...perhaps it would be a great idea to go ahead with the 10 to 15 frames ( @30/sec ). So far I have yet to receive any complaints with the 3 frames. I do have an older (99 model) Magnavox portable with digital output (personal style) that starts correctly from the top..but when selecting any track above tk 1, it needs 7 frames to catch the top.

I guess we all need to seek a universal standard to accommodate all machines! The best way of getting this dealt with in the industry (I suppose) is for us to see if it is a particular brand of player/transport that is noted for looking too far ahead..and when this is narrowed down, a group emailing from mastering engineers to the engineering and design staff of such manufacturer would not hurt. I am surprised that I in the past have gotten results from manufacturers at times when certain things are pointed out but I should be modest..because it figures that many people pointing issues out, certainly would get their attention!

I do equipment reviews at times and this certainly makes enough noise to get noticed. One reason for doing them actually. I have yet to find ANY review piece devoid of issues to list..mostly minor..but in the users arena, major to them.

bobkatz · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2004, 07:30:52 PM »

Level wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 17:51

Mr. Katz wrote:

Bob, thank you for pointing this out.

You're lucky you found a few DVD players that work ok. But even if they cue fast enough, don't they mute in the gap? The DVD players I've got all mute in the gap. It's a bear.

The problem is there are a few cheap DVD chipsets and now under-$100 players being manufactured everywhere with those chipsets---you'll find the manufacturers are over in Korea or wherever... how are we going to write to them?

Sony/Philips should have established a standard of conformance to CD playback that would police the performance of a DVD player.

Another problem indirectly related is how long it takes for the DVD player to decide "there's an audio CD in this player, and I'm now ready to play it". Hit play.... takes forever to start playing.

BK

dcollins · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2004, 01:51:43 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 06:39

Unless it's a live record, I have mine set to 6 frames (about 80 milliseconds) and haven't had any issues with complaints about un-mute times...

Same here. I've also done a ton of "zero offset" and no one is complaining that the downbeat is cutoff....

My DVD player does take much to long to play a CD, though.

DC

turtletone · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2004, 07:40:50 AM »

I've noticed that on my DVD players that they do mute in the gap, but only with digital output. The analog outputs don't mute... very strange.

bblackwood · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2004, 12:12:03 PM »

TurtleTone wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 06:40

I've noticed that on my DVD players that they do mute in the gap, but only with digital output. The analog outputs don't mute... very strange.

If there's audio in the gap, is it lost through the dig outs as well?

Bill Yacey · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2004, 12:31:36 PM »

I usually put 150 to 200mS of silence at the front end of the track , and do a fade in of about 100mS to the first note. Works for me.
Bill

turtletone · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2004, 09:57:40 AM »

Yes, even if there's audio in the gap. I have a consumer system at home of coarse, and the amp is clocked by the digi input from the DVD player. In the pregap, the clock stops, and then starts up again, but the amp has to reclock to the signal before it outputs. this can take 1-2 secs for this to happen. So not only do you loose the pregap but also a significant amount from the start of the song. I've always known this to be an issue with AC3 files on DVD's and having to have 2 secs preroll before audio so the amp can lock, but with CD's, it's seems to still be the case, unless i use the analog outputs.

Bob Olhsson · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2004, 07:38:06 PM »

First time I had audio in a gap, I got a call from Sony telling me "it's a no no!"

turtletone · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2004, 10:52:06 PM »

I don't do it much myself unless asked for. I do believe it's allowed in the redbood specs, At least I haven't had those kicked back. I have seen several live Cd's where the clapping is in the gap.

jfrigo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2004, 11:03:25 PM »

TurtleTone wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 19:52

I don't do it much myself unless asked for. I do believe it's allowed in the redbood specs, At least I haven't had those kicked back. I have seen several live Cd's where the clapping is in the gap.

At least some applause and announcing in the gap is the most common preference I see in doing live CDs. We've never had a complaint from a client or plant. I don't doubt that there are some systems scattered about that have a problem with it, but they seem very much the minority, and the clients I see are willing to risk the few to please the masses.

turtletone · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2004, 07:47:30 AM »

It never used to be a problem, but now that everyone is moving from CD player to DVD player, It could become one. Especially since a lot of home systems now have digital in's.

Alécio Costa - Brazil · « **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2004, 12:24:08 PM »

I have just bought a cheaaaaap U$70 stereo Cd/k7/radio player to listen to my mixes/junior squeze. It does a funny thing: it makes a fade-in for very new track. however, if you skip from track to track, it reads immediately and no fade-ins happen.
Weird, right?

bobkatz · « **Reply #22 on:** August 09, 2004, 12:13:15 PM »

TurtleTone wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 22:52

I don't do it much myself unless asked for. I do believe it's allowed in the redbood specs, At least I haven't had those kicked back. I have seen several live Cd's where the clapping is in the gap.

I'd say one out of every 10 CDs that leaves here has audio in the "pause" on at least one number! For example, it might be the slow decay of one number seguing into the next one...

BK

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Author Topic: Is it just me......??? (Read 4444 times)