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Author Topic: The Wall of Shame-Video  (Read 23369 times)

kats

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2010, 06:39:01 PM »

Fletcher wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 11:42

The name of the company is now TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik.  Feel free to refer to the company as "New Tele" or "T-Ela" but "T-USA" has been the wrong name for close to a year now.

What next, are you going to tell me I can't use the word ketchup?


Please: let's get back on track, or start a new thread about microphone naming issues.
Thanks, K.H.
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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

bigbone

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2010, 09:16:39 PM »

Klaus..... you run your forum as tight as a  vagina nun, and i'm not sure
if i like it or not, but that's your forum and i do respect it.

P.S. you are probably edit it, but like i said it's your form, do as you like !!!!
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Caco

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2010, 09:21:12 PM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 13:38

dbock wrote on Sun, 14 February 2010 21:14

Klaus,
I'm not sure I understand your premise clearly. Is it possible for you to re-state it?
thanks, David


Gladly.
The video shows today's top popular recording stars at work in several world-class recording studios contributing (not faking) their vocal parts to a song intended to raise money for Haitian earthquake victims.

In the overwhelming majority of the vocals on this recording (and pretty much all other top-shelf vocals sung by top-shelf artists) the mics used are very old. With very few exceptions, that is still the norm today.

The video shows and condenses nicely something that seems like an anachronism in technology: heavy use of devices that are decades old in a technology field where the half-life of gear (think DAWs A-to-D's, storage media, etc, etc.) is rarely longer than two years, if even that long.

Regarding progress in microphones: all of today's larger manufacturers, and most of the boutique shops are concentrating on that old technology. Unless you regard as progress touting the look, technical features, names, and company logos of forty or fifty year-old mics, not to mention ads that keep harping on 'vintage' this and 'vintage' that for their current models.

If manufacturers would admit that nothing better than what was done decades ago can be produced today, and that the old bones cannot be improved upon, that would be one thing I could live with. But that is not the case: we get ever more technologically truncated and visually butchered barely-copies of the real thing (have you seen the current copy of the AKG C414EB?) accompanied by brazen advertisements claiming similar performance as the old workhorses. And that I find shameful, because it is deception.

So much for an attempt at an answer to David.

Others excuse the heavy vintage representation in the video with "that's what they happen to have in their studio". But that is not a valid argument, in my opinion. The top-shelf facilities do have the budget to replace gear in that price range at the drop of a hat, if they thought they could improve their microphone closet, image, or reputation.

Furthermore, blaming me as the messenger for the unpleasant message because I may have inferior, selfish motives does not address the issue: why do we still keep recording our most critical material with mics that are many decades old- if we are lucky enough to own them or can afford to purchase them?


1. There are so many products on planet Earth that the modern versions are still based  on old technologies, and that doesn't takes away from their quality.

2. Of course that a well preserved vintage Big-Five mic is a wonderful microphone and all studios must have them.

3. There ain't no such thing as "recording the most critical material with old mics" as there are a broad variety of critical material recorded with modern ones.

4. Doesn't matters if was the studio itself, or the producer's choice, or the artist's choice. Those are great mics and they are in the ball park to major recordings, but then again: that does not takes a milimeter away from so many modern options.

5. Smashing the reputation of some of today's clones is not fair as well. A Flea 49 would get the job done in the place of those 49's. A microphone shall be judged sonically, no matter if it is original, clone, refurbished, expensive, cheap...

6. Manufacturers admit that nothing better can be produced? That is some non-sense stuff. Gilmour recorded an entire album with the C800-G. I've been listening to many people's comments on how some big time artists were amazed with the sound of the Bock 507, Brauner VM1/VMA, Telefunken Elektroakustik's 251, Wunder CM7, Wagner and witnessed many major recordings with modern mikes.

Perhaps the salvation day will be the day that we would have the opportunity to enter the waiting list for the major breakthrough in the mike industry: Klaus Heyne Microphones.


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Glenn Bucci

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2010, 09:42:26 PM »

Do you think people want the vintage mic's because they actually sound better than the newer mic's, or because so many classic recordings were done with these old mic's and people today just want to capture more of the sound of the older recordings?  I mean if they had Brauner, and Bock mic's in the 1960's and people used them, do you think there would be a lot of copy mic company's out there today trying to copy the Bock's and Brauners?
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2010, 09:43:40 PM »

Caco wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 18:21


2. Of course that a well preserved vintage Big-Five mic is a wonderful microphone and all studios must have them.

You seem to be concurring with the argument I was making.

Quote:

 A Flea 49 would get the job done in the place of those 49's. A microphone shall be judged sonically, no matter if it is original, clone, refurbished, expensive, cheap...

If the FLEA microphone is as sonically good or as desirable as a Neumann M49 it tries to emulate, it will be the new standard. It then will be seen and used in the best studios of the world instead of or along their genuine M49s.
But it may not happen, because its capsule alone is not on par with the K49/M7 capsules Neumann made and is making today, and I am sticking my head out in opining that a FLEA M49 copy without that capsule and the Neumann transformer will not even come close.
I somehow get the sense that you may agree with me more if you owned and used both- the original and the copy, in excellent condition.

Quote:

 Gilmour recorded an entire album with the C800-G. I've been listening to many people's comments on how some big time artists were amazed with the sound of the Bock 507, Brauner VM1/VMA, Telefunken Elektroakustik's 251, Wunder CM7, Wagner

If you were to work with any of the Big Five for a while, then compare them to their impostors, you may have a different opinion.

Finally, a note about this forum's etiquette: your remark about "Klaus Heyne microphones" seemed sarcastic to me, and out of line with the respectful tone we try to keep here- even when we strongly and passionately disagree with one another. Please try to make your arguments without resorting to personalisation. They will also be stronger that way.
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Klaus Heyne
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2010, 09:55:23 PM »

bigbone wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 18:16

Klaus..... you run your forum as tight as a  vagina nun, and i'm not sure
if i like it or not, but that's your forum and i do respect it.

P.S. you are probably edit it, but like i said it's your form, do as you like !!!!


I take what you may have meant as criticism as a compliment -thank you - as long as you guys hold me to the same fire!

(though a bit unclear on the concept of a vagina nun)
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Dominick

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »

As told to me by Gregory Davis, my supervisor while i was working at AMS/Neve during the mid '90's
Rule #4 "This is show business"
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Dominick Costanzo

Caco

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2010, 11:24:33 PM »

Of course it was sarcastic but I got shocked with the way you reacted. This will lead your forum more to the authoritarian than to the authoritative label. The irony that I've made in defense of so many people, workers and products of today's mic companies was not untrue, and in my honest opinion my irony was not that monster that you've made.

And saying that my statement regarding the Big Five mics as necessary items for the big studios was kinda concurring with your point of view was NOT RIGHT. I've written with all the letters that although they are great and necessary ALL THE GREAT MODERN ONES ARE ALSO GREAT AND NECESSARY. One thing doesn't takes away the value of the other.

I also think that there are other microphone experts in the world that are in the same ball park that you are, and again: one thing doesn't takes away the value of the other.

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bigbone

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2010, 11:43:39 PM »

Klaus,
As always, I do hold in respect all the people that I communique with, and try to keep it light.
Microphones are important, but we are not talking here about death or cancer. so. we just have to relax about it.


And about old and new microphones, there will alway a debate.

All the best.

JN
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kats

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2010, 09:06:48 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Mon, 15 February 2010 20:43


work with any of the Big Five for a while, then compare them to their impostors...



"Impostors" - how brutally perfect!
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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

Extreme Mixing

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2010, 01:33:04 PM »

And completely neutral in tone...

Though I do agree with Klaus that there is nothing quite like the real thing when it's in great condition and properly working.  

I don't see the Sony C800G as being an inferior microphone at all.  What it does, it does really well.  It has a sound and a vibe that can be just right.

Steve

David Bock

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2010, 12:21:52 AM »

Thank you for clarifying, Klaus.
If I'm correct, the video was shot at one of the remaining large, established studio here in LA. The singers seemed to be in the same room, with some shots in iso rooms. I wasn't there, so I don't know for fact.
As it stands you statement is not supported by anything but circumstantial evidence.
We don't know, and I haven't asked Ed Cherney what his criteria for selecting mics was that day. Were they in a hurry? Did Ed use stuff he was familiar with? Dis they really even devote much time to the mic selection? Does an established studio like that even have any new mics, or the $$$ for them? Don't know. Might not even matter to them, $$$ might get prioritized elsewhere. It doesn't mean that through careful evaluation and selection of all of the microphone choices possible in the world today, that's what they decided upon, to the exclusion of all else, deliberately, it means that's what happened THAT day,due to circumstance.
If this had happened 60 years ago, the room would have been filled with RCA ribbons. 90 years ago, a turntable with the horn connected to the stylus. In 30 years, who knows. Ed used what he knew, and what was there that day. In 30 years Ed' successor might use something else. Mic selection, like guitars, can very well boil down to comfortable fashion for the engineer and studio (I don't recall Ed having his own mic collection on any sessions at Oceanway). To address what's in Henson's mic locker, well, I'm guessing most of it was bought some years ago. Just because they might not have (again I don't know for fact) any new mics doesn't mean it was a decision of exclusion.
If I were to use the logic of your statement and apply it to a personal example, then all of the old crappy mic cables we used at Oceanway to record all those big commercial releases & hits are good, and all the new mic cables people make now belong on the "wall of shame" as an indictment of their inadequacy at capturing great artists.
In addition to the lack of evidence =for your point (one video, no backround story or research) there are mics made after 1973 (my date threshold) that get used by famous artists (even for vocals) on hit and large commercial release albums, which contradicts your conclusion. I may have even seen a video or two of this.
regards,
David

bigbone

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2010, 07:16:01 AM »


The vocal was not record that day, it was only a video. so we don't know for
sure what mic was use on vocal.

JN
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Caco

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2010, 03:39:54 PM »

I think that Klaus' posture throughout this whole forum is not adequate. Authoritarian behavior and making a microphone look like a mystical device is not appropriate...(...)

I respect your critical position towards my person and my motives, but do not respect that you continue with your disrespectful tone. I won't continue editing out your slanders and insults (which I removed from this post). As mentioned to you in my PM and edits, you keep violating several of the ground rules of this forum that I laid down in the belief that they help good, friendly and constructive conversation (please read!)

Please, one last time, stick to the subject, refrain from personal insults, and let your arguments carry the debate. If you don't want to do that, please don't post anymore. Thanks, K.H.




....As for the so called Big Five, I personally don't worship all of them. I am a fan of the U47 and the M49, that's it. The M269c is a way better than the U67 and I honestly prefer David Bock's 507 and the Sony C800-G over 98% of all vintage mics I've ever seen. So the old days only produced 2 big-time jewels in my opinion, nowadays we have 2 and much more. Brauner has great mics too ! The Sony is one of the top 3 mics of all time in my opinion.

The C12 is a great mic of course, but not in the same league as the top 3 mics of all time in my opinion:

1. Neumann M49
2. Neumann U47
3. Sony C-800G

Hope somebody understands my  point.







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David Bock

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Re: The Wall of Shame-Video
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2010, 04:39:05 PM »

Dear Caco,
Keep in mind I'm criticizing Klaus' idea, not him the person.
regards,
David
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