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Author Topic: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?  (Read 9836 times)

24-96 Mastering

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 09:14:58 am »

When I tried a mains filter I could hear/measure no change in signal noise floor. I also used to have an APC but after the battery died I never bothered to replace it because there seems to be no real point here (Germany, metro area). There was only one single power outage in the last ten years that I'm aware of. I guess the power I get is just a lot more stable than in other places...

Jaakko: Maybe wait until you're out there to see if you actually need it / if there's any benefit to be had.
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24-96 Mastering
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jdg

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 11:54:11 am »

some online UPS's aren't rated and dont perform as well as you think they would.

i have a tripplite, it is rated 120V output -18V/+5V.
that sucks. (computers only run from this, so thats fine)

the furman AR units are 120V +/- 5% (6V)

the APC Smart UPS are 5% as well.

in my studio, the input voltage gets as low as 100 mid day, but thru the power chain i setup, i get to about a constant 115-117.

to everyone here saying they get "120" solid, have you measured the input voltage?

just curious how honest these +/- 5% ratings are.

i personally would like +/- 1%

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john mcCaig
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bblackwood

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2010, 12:00:38 pm »

jdg wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 10:54

to everyone here saying they get "120" solid, have you measured the input voltage?

Yah, here it tends to slide between 120-125VAC out of the wall all the time. Very rarely have I seen it dip below 120 VAC.
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Brad Blackwood
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Greg Reierson

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2010, 12:05:22 pm »

After fighting with power issues in a studio many years ago I moved to powering my gear with ferro resonant transformers (Sola). Right now, my AC line monitor shows input at 115VAC and output at 120VAC, which is maintained continuously. No transformer tap switches, etc.

I also have an ONEAC line monitor feeding a scope to monitor common mode and normal mode noise on the incoming and filtered feeds. Stable, clean power is vital to a low noise floor.


GR
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 08:16:40 am »

I enjoy staring at the voltage and current displays on my Monster 3500.

Not sure it does much, but it generally sits between 120 and 124 volts, and as to the current, it just depends : - )

Also use the ADC UPS's on the DAWs and digital gear.

Like others have stated, power amps directly into the wall outlet.

Cheers - JT
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Terra Nova Mastering
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 12:40:39 pm »

Line voltage is largely related to anticipated growth in the neighborhood.

Areas that experienced far less growth than power company projections tend to have higher voltage. Areas that have far greater growth than power company projections tend to have lower voltage. Areas that expected and have seen no growth since before the last power station upgrade tend to sit right on 120 volts.

Viitalahde

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 03:32:58 pm »

What a load of options, thank you a lot! I'm just seeking for alternatives, but I'm purchasing these this year.

I haven't measured anything from the mains in our house at the countryside, but we do see occasional blinking lights and other short dropouts, especially this winter with lots of snow.

There will at least be a regulator behind the signal chain, possibly an UPS too. The DAWs will definately get an UPS, not sure what should I put at the power amps. Maybe just some sort of a solution to cut off the spikes.

Greg's ferro resonant transformer sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that.
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Jaakko Viitalähde
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dcollins

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 03:41:21 pm »

Viitalahde wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 12:32

 
Greg's ferro resonant transformer sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that.


Depending on the brand they can generate a very distorted sinewave.  I think the good ones are speced in THD.  It's also a large source of magnetic field so that would also have to be considered.  The Furman with switched taps seems like a better solution.

If you decide to use balanced power, I think the best approach is to generate it locally for units that can benefit, and not to use a large transformer at the service like the Eqitech system.

As you mentioned, you actually have to see what the issues with the power are and take it from there.


DC



Bob Weston

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 04:35:37 pm »

We have a similar thing as Greg: Best Ferrups UPS / ferro-resonant line-conditioner in line all the time.

FE18kVA

http://www.steadypower.com/catalog/powerware.php?category_id =34#products

bob weston
chicago mastering
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Greg Reierson

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 04:36:36 pm »

dcollins wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 14:41

Viitalahde wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 12:32

 
Greg's ferro resonant transformer sounds interesting. I'll have to look into that.

Depending on the brand they can generate a very distorted sinewave.  

This is true. They can also spew noise back onto the supply lines. As with USP, you need to look at the specs carefully. If you want to go that route, consult a expert with the ability to test the output.
Quote:

The Furman with switched taps seems like a better solution.

I tried one many years ago but the tap switching caused spikes. Maybe they're better now than they used to be.


GR
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tom eaton

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2010, 08:34:47 am »

Bringing this thread back from the dead to ask if any of you folks have made changes or have new power issues/solutions.

I'm dealing with a machine in another part of my building which causes enough of a voltage drop when it cycles that my Monster Power boxes, which have 10 amps of load on them as a matter or course, go way over on power consumption and trip.  With a 6 amp load on the Monster box the amp readout will fly up to 12 amps and then settle over a second or so when his machine cycles. With a 10amp load the Monster boxes go flying up to 15amps and promptly shut off.

My computers are on a voltage regulator (Furman AR1215) and a UPS and have no problems so far.

We share only the feed from the transformer at the street, I have my own 100amp 3 phase feed and the offender has a 225amp 3 phase service to his unit.

Considering all available options... voltage regulation, isolation transformers, balanced power... but I need a solution I can get off the shelf NOW!  I can run everything I have off 30amps of clean power if I can find that solution.

I'm concerned about the potential issues of running multiple voltage regulators (3 15amp Furman 1215s for example) and having the gear connected via audio cables while running potentially a few volts apart from each other on their mains (IE, one rack of gear might be getting 118vac, another might be getting 126vac and I'd be patching audio between them).  Would that give me potential for huge ground problems?

Thanks for whatever help people can offer!

tom

Thomas W. Bethel

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2010, 08:54:46 am »

We use to have TOPAZ Ultra Isolators on all our equipment. A while back we removed all of them and went to the Monster Power Conditioners. I have really not heard a big difference. You may want to try one of these.

http://www.hgrinc.com/buyOurs/inventory_detail.do?sel_word=B EST&sel_word_sub=&category=&sel_category=&se l_inventory_num=&sel_start_dt=&sel_end_dt=&hidMe nuTab=-1&sch_word_sub=&sortBy=&sortYN=1&page Line=10&sessionUrl_pass=N&viewMode=list&currPage =1&inventory_num=10101200017&from_url=%2FbuyOurs%2Fi nventory_list.do&addList=&cust_id=&sch_yn=N& buttonView=1&sel_start_price=&sel_end_price=&pri ceMode=

The price is GREAT and my mentor uses these all over his facility.

Best of luck!
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Thomas W. Bethel
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Phillip Graham

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2010, 05:07:39 pm »

In the Pro AV install world, everyone relies on essentially two products for general power robustness.  The first is Surgex's surge protection:

http://www.surgex.com/products.html

And the second is the aforementioned Furman multi-tap voltage conditioner.

DSPs are place on a UPS.

Service calls are margin killers for install companies, and the need for truly effective surge protection has made Surgex the leader in that space.  Their new remote managed power sequencers will help them keep that lead.

There are much higher end pieces, of course, with full rectification and re-conversion to new voltages/line frequencies, but that is generally too expensive for the general AV world, and unnecessary.

tom eaton wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 08:34

Bringing this thread back from the dead to ask if any of you folks have made changes or have new power issues/solutions.

I'm dealing with a machine in another part of my building which causes enough of a voltage drop when it cycles that my Monster Power boxes, which have 10 amps of load on them as a matter or course, go way over on power consumption and trip.


The process you are describing seems highly unlikely behavior for the average thermal breaker at only 10amps load.  Are the Monster units in question GFCI?  If so, it is more likely that there is a spike (or dip) on the neutral/live combo from the other equipment that is triggering the GCFI.  Also, if his device is contributing certain harmonics ("triplen") to the neutral current, for instance, this could trip the GFCI.

To have a real double current draw, the line voltage would have to sag to the point that most gear would shut off.  If the gear stays operational, then the problem is most likely elsewhere, and my armchair quarterback take is that his equipment is polluting your neutral.

Quote:


Thanks for whatever help people can offer!

tom


You need a good clamp meter, and you need to look at the neutral and ground current behavior both on his feed and yours.  You also need to make sure there isn't an incorrect neutral/ground bond point in one of the subpanels after the main feed.  Neutral and ground are to share only one bond point, at that is only at the main panel.

Without the current behavior in each of the conductors on each of the feeds, it is very difficult to say with certainty what is going on.
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Phillip Graham

tom eaton

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2010, 09:59:33 pm »

As far as I know, the Monster Power 3500 units I have turn themselves off when 15amps or more is drawn through the box.  

I put in a Furman 30 amp voltage regulator and I can see the same thing on the ammeter on its front panel.  When his machine cycles runs the current draw jumps from 18-20amps up to 28-30 amps.  

I am now thinking that the best thing I can do is put in a 15kva isolation transformer with a ground rod, followed by a 15kva UPS "always on" system.  

tom

MASSIVE Mastering

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Re: Mains regulation, what's the good stuff?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 12:19:52 am »

Q for the Furman people -- Are they reasonably SILENT?  

I had a few different regulators in here and I couldn't stand the noise they made.  Pretty much have to keep it close unfortunately...  

Lately, my power has been pretty freaky and I think it's time to go back to a regulator.  But not if it's going to be buzzing and humming all the time...  
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John Scrip
Massive Mastering - Chicago (Schaumburg / Hoffman Est.), IL - USA
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