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Author Topic: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...  (Read 11940 times)

ssltech

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2010, 03:02:42 pm »

Yes that's pretty much perfectly in tune with my ponderances.

It's also interesting that they seem to be using a magnetic detection device, such as a Hall-effect sensor, instead of a potentiometer.

That way, it's not prone to troubles like the wiper-wear which can plague potentiometers, ...BUT... I've had Hall-effect sensors in devices such as Studer tape remote switches, where the failure mode has been 'full-on'...

Thanks for the link. -That's expanded my line of thought somewhat.

I want to stress that I'm not shrieking 'conspiracy' here... just that I'm worried that Toyota might be making the massive mistake of not disclosing fully, and that it might HURT them if it EVER comes out that they misdiagnosed the original problem... and just took a "blame it on the floormats" approach...

It appears that there were problems BEFORE the CTS product design... That's not a good sign...

I really want them to get this behind them, and be able to move forward.

I heard on the radio (npr) that Ford as now joined GM in offering a $1k trade-in bump for Toyota owners...

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Collins

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2010, 03:56:40 pm »

Quote:

I heard on the radio (npr) that Ford as now joined GM in offering a $1k trade-in bump for Toyota owners...


Michelle Krebbs, senior analyst for Edmunds.com, said that, if not for this week's problems, Toyota's sales would have been up at least slightly for the month.

The expected drop could send Toyota's market share below 15 percent, which would be its lowest level in nearly four years.

Most of Toyota's rivals are expected to post higher sales compared to a year ago. Ford Motor, which last year reported its first market share gain in the United States since 1995, is expected to pass Toyota in market share in January, according to Edmunds.com.

Ford has joined General Motors and other automakers trying to capitalize on Toyota's problems, offering $1,000 to buyers who trade in Toyotas when purchasing a new car.

That could be a big problem for Toyota. "People buy Toyotas for their bullet-proof reliability," said Krebbs. "That was their main selling point, and that's taken a huge hit."

-------------------------------------------------

Fishy indeed.

Funny, the initial fix from Toyota for the floor mat thing
was to attach a simple ty-wrap to the mat and to the stay on the floor.
I've actually detached the mat from the stay and tried to push the mat under the pedal and could not see a way it could cause the accelerator to depress or stick, as the pedals are hangers.

I am now wondering if there is a similar problem with the
clutch squeak I mentioned? As many others are experiencing
the same thing in hot weather?...

More here.

This is the recall announced last week following months of insistence that the root cause of a runaway Toyota or Lexus that could kill you and your family was floor mats jamming under accelerators and pinning the pedal to the metal. Now it turns out the accelerator pedal can just plain stick on its own.

Toyota, which has been running ads lately touting its safety record, is still selling new vehicles subject to the recall. It explains that the accelerator won't stick until a critical part wears down. It won't say how many miles it will take before that could happen.
To help understand how Toyota became enmeshed in this nightmare, it's worth examining its three-year journey as laid out in a Jan. 21 letter to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. First, here's exactly what Toyota says is going wrong:

   Due to the manner in which the friction lever interacts with the sliding surface of the accelerator pedal inside the pedal sensor assembly, the sliding surface of the lever may become smooth during vehicle operation.
   In this condition, if condensation occurs on the surface, as may occur from heater operation (without A/C) when the pedal assembly is cold, the friction when the accelerator pedal is operated may increase, which may result in the accelerator pedal becoming harder to depress, slower to return, or, in the worst case, mechanically stuck in a partially depressed position.
   In addition, some of the affected vehicles' pedals were manufactured with friction levers made of a different material (stuff called "PA46"), which may be susceptible to humidity when parked for a long period in hot temperatures. In this condition, the friction when the accelerator pedal is operated may increase, which may result in the accelerator pedal movement becoming rough or slow to return. In light of the similarity with one of the symptoms described above that are associated with the PPS material, Toyota has decided to include these vehicles in the defect determination.

Then Toyota lays out the chain of events leading up to the recall:

   March 2007-June 2008
   Starting in March 2007, Toyota received field technical information regarding reports of accelerator pedals demonstrating symptoms such as rough operation or being slow to return to the idle position. These reports were limited to one model (Tundra), and the accelerator pedal assemblies in those vehicles contained a friction lever made of the PA46 material. Toyota's investigation found that the PA46 material was susceptible to humidity, which could cause the friction lever to absorb moisture and swell. Environmental testing was conducted in order to understand the full impact of the swelling of the friction lever due to humidity.
   In February 2008, the material of the friction arm was changed to (another kind of composite called) PPS while investigations continued. In June 2008, Toyota concluded that while accelerator pedal feeling could change under certain conditions, Toyota considered it to be a drivability issue unrelated to safety.
   December 2008 -August 2009
   Toyota received field technical information from the European market which indicated reports of accelerator pedal sticking on vehicles equipped with pedals containing the PPS material. The reports predominantly involved right-hand-drive versions of the Toyota Aygo and Yaris vehicles.
   Toyota began a detailed investigation with an evaluation of returned accelerator pedals in March 2009. Internal inspection of the sliding surface of the friction lever and the pedal arm was found to be partially smooth. Toyota conducted some duplication tests, and it was found that the internal friction could increase if moisture was attached to the sliding surface of the friction lever as the surface became smooth. This made the accelerator pedal stick in a partially depressed position under the condition where condensation occurs on the accelerator pedal (i.e. for several minutes during heater operation after the engine is started in cold temperatures). In addition, in the condition where A/C is operated, the phenomenon did not occur.
   At this time, it appeared to be a phenomenon predominantly limited to right-hand-drive vehicles, without A/C equipment, based on the location of the accelerator pedal and the heater duct. Based on the investigation results above, Toyota lengthened the arm of the friction lever and changed its material to prevent smoothing on all vehicles produced in Europe with the subject accelerator pedals starting in mid-August 2009.
   October 2009- January 2010
   Toyota received field technical information from the U.S. and Canadian markets which indicated reports of sticking accelerator pedals had occurred. Toyota recovered parts in order to evaluate the phenomenon. The returned accelerator pedals have the same material friction lever as previously used in the European models (PPS) and, as a result of the internal investigation, Toyota decided to conduct a voluntary safety recall of all vehicles with the subject accelerator pedals. This recall will include vehicles equipped with friction levers made with PPS material, as well as with the PA46 material, which was associated with the rough operation or slow to return symptoms.

 




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ScotcH

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2010, 04:00:16 pm »

I always hated the design on non BMW gas pedals (ie, not floor mounted) ... the floor mounted pedal just seems like such an idiot proof design (a hinge and a plate) that anything but seems like way too much engineering work (ie, hanging pedals).

You'd think designers would learn something from race cars by now Smile

Hall effect cam and crank sensors are pretty common, and they certainly do fail, but if they do, it's pretty easy to detect the failure, and just pull the throttle closed (assuming the software is working correctly of course!)
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Arek Wojciechowski - Laundry Room, Basement, Garage, Bedroom, etc.

ssltech

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2010, 04:28:21 pm »

I've had both crank reference sensors replaced recently on one of my cars... 20 years old. But things getting off-time makes an engine run SLOWER or more usually stop entirely, not runaway... basically the default failure-mode for such things is 'fail-safe', not 'fail-lethal' -Not so a gas pedal.

Two of my cars (Audi and Porsche) both have floor-mounted pedals, as did every one of my aircooled vehicles...

But now that I write about it, I'm reminded of a problem which I once experienced in one of my Beetles which I'd actually forgotten about...

In Right-hand-drive aircooled VW's, the throttle cable (which runs down alongside the transmission tunnel, towards the engine which is at the REAR of the car) exits on the LEFT side of the tunnel. For RHD (British, Australian, South African etc) variants, the pedal assembly is moved to the RIGHT side of the car, but the cable attachment is still on the left, but is covered by a small -removable- protective plate. The pedal assembly connects to the clutch cable right at the tunnel, and the accelerator passes all the way THROUGH the tunnel from right-to-left, into the (Left-hand-side) front passenger footwell, where it couples with the end of the throttle cable, under the cover-plate.

I once had a nervous passenger in one of my Beetles in England, who tried to press an "imaginary brake pedal"... and ended up shifting the plate forward, and PUSHING the cable-tip forwards, resulting in the gas-pedal being pressed forwards on MY (driver's RHD) side of the car... This was -of course- as I had left it fairly late braking into a corner... I dipped the clutch and the engine started to scream, at which point I shut it off and rolled to the side of the road.

The incident had been disconcerting, and it took a minute or two to realise why the pedal was stuck forward... and it would NEVER happen in a Left-Hand Drive (USA, Continental Europe, ROW etc.) version of the car... but I do remember the "what the HECK is going on?" confusion and the urge to 'panic'...

However, I urge ANYONE who ever has something like this happen to them to try and think calmly.

Compare and contrast the panic in the Australian Explorer driver's behaviour, with this time-aligned combination recording/reconstruction of the (almost a year ago to the day) Captain Sullenberger incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tE_5eiYn0D0#t=109

Watch very specifically the conversation between Captain Sullenberger and Flight Officer Skiles, which was reconstructed and time-synchronized with both the video reconstruction and the radio-communication recording... Particularly beginning at the bird-strike, just after 3:30...

Calmness and consideration of options is the best way. ALWAYS.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

ssltech

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2010, 04:56:40 pm »

..In fact here's a pic which I grabbed from a UK Ebay sale, in which you can see the pedal assembly in a RHD Beetle, and the cover in the passenger footwell, which 'guards' where the gas pedal pass-through shaft couples with the throttle cable...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/SSLtech/RHD-Beetle-int.jpg

See also how easy it is for a nervous front-seat passenger to 'brace' themselves by putting their foot forward and -if they cause the cover to shift- open the throttle... -From memory, that cover is held on by only one or two screws, mounted at the bottom, I think.

...Ooooh... and a link to a page featuring a couple of lovely exploded diagrams, showing the multi-concentric linkages, and the differences between aircooled Left-drive and Right-drive pedal assemblies:

http://www.vw-resource.com/brake_adjust.html

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

compasspnt

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2010, 05:10:05 pm »

Pilots have a checklist for everything, every known emergency. The training is immense, especially so for ATP (Air Transport Pilots).

Each airplane model of course has its own type-specific checklists, and they are drilled into your head.  Plus, they are printed and at hand in the cockpit.

For instance, I once had an engine out (in a single!) on long final...had I not immediately and calmly gone into checklist mode ("1. Establish proper glide speed, 2..." etc.) we would likely have had a bad ending...but around option 3 the problem became apparent, and was quickly rectified, resulting in a perfect and easy landing.

It's a shame there aren't checklists for automobiles...if the California Runaway had gone to emergency checklist mode, and started rapidly going through options, he might likely have shifted into neutral in time, and four lives might have been saved.

People, think through these things in advance...be prepared...remain calm and THINK.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2010, 05:18:47 pm »

Some people seem "hard-wired" to panic while others remain cool.  I'm not sure this is something easily changed: it requires considerable training to overcome and most drivers have little to none.

Strummer

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2010, 09:28:50 pm »

I was driving a '64 Pontiac Catalina, 389 2 bbl, probably about 275 horsepower in a ten ton car, the power to weight ratio is the only thing that saved me.

It had mechanical throttle linkage. I'd floored it (yes, a kid in dad's car), a motor mount broke, the engine torqued over, pulling and binding the linkage, opening the air intake wide open. The pedal was stuck to the floor. My first thought was to reach down and grab the pedal to pull it up. My second thought was to switch off the ignition.

I suppose eventually the engine would have leveled out and the linkage would have released, but it was a scary few seconds.

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bblackwood

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2010, 10:02:30 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 16:18

Some people seem "hard-wired" to panic while others remain cool.

I believe this to be 100% correct.
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Edvaard

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2010, 11:27:40 pm »


You guys make me nervous when you say that.
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Roadster

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2010, 03:32:08 pm »

Typical driver checklist:
1. Cellphone
2. Inbox on cellphone
3. Fax machine
4. Laptop
5. Hairbrush
6. Ipod
7. ear buds
8. Oops forgot grocery list, no prob, can just text wife doing 70 mph on the interstate and wait for her fax.
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Rich
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Roadster

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2010, 04:02:43 pm »

This thread reminds me to get to work on my new invention for high tech toys.
It's a Mobile High Tech Storage Device or the XMHTSD as it it’s called in the experimental stage. It’s made out of 3/4" plywood and sits on the passenger seat of your vehicle. It’s a little bulky with reinforced steel braces and such, but it should protect all your toys in the even of a head-on collision. Comes in black and red sparkle only. Am thinking about having the outside cover tucked and pleated.  
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Rich
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compasspnt

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2010, 04:21:25 pm »

Just make it out of "black box" material.
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Barkley McKay

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2010, 04:38:38 pm »

Check List?

In mine its prime, ignition, starting crank...

barks
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DarinK

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Re: Toyota: -Something smells fishy to me...
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2010, 04:51:52 pm »

bblackwood wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 19:02

Jay Kadis wrote on Mon, 01 February 2010 16:18

Some people seem "hard-wired" to panic while others remain cool.

I believe this to be 100% correct.


Yep.  One evening a friend & I were standing in his backyard when something on the utility pole blew up, with a huge flash & loud explosion.  I froze in place while he literally ran around in circles.  I'd probably fare better in some circumstances (like an automotive emergency), but he'd do better in others (like a sudden outburst of gunfire or a vehicle crashing into a building that we're occupying). Oddly enough, I'm a much more spontaneous musician, while he contemplates every note in advance.
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