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[typek]

hey dudes...

i just sent some mixes to my mastering guy for the first time, and he's tellin me they are 3-4 dB too hot. What is the best way to take em down a notch? I feel like printing with the master fader down a couple dB is "cheating" and will affect my mix in a negative way.
It's a little tricky, because of the way I mix...

I send all audio tracks to busses (Kick/Snare buss, GTRS buss, Bass buss, etc) and build my mix off the aux's. I do this to ensure that all tracks arrive at my 2bus together-  helps me avoid phasing and stuff when I do Parallel compression.. its all ITB

How would you guys go about taking a dB or two off the entire mix, while still maintaining the same relative levels between tracks?

[grantis]

Are you saying you bounce mixes ITB or do you print to another track in your DAW?

[compasspnt]

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/4918/6490/


http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/15038/6490/

[KB_S1]

If you really have to do this and you are running PT HD, this would be my method.

Save each session as a new version:

Put all audio and Aux tracks routed to MIX  into a group>
Put track view into Volume Trim
Use trim tool to bring the level down by 1 or 2db.

This will bring everything down by the same amount relative to original fader positions throughout mix.
The same could be done with a VCA group I think, need to check.

[typek]

grantis...ITB bounce...
its weird, I have had different opinions from different engineers... One of my old teachers told me to just turn down the master fader a couple dB's. But, for some reason, that is changing the way the whole mix sounds...It gets darker and a little muddier..I'm curious as to why this is..

I will read these threads compass.. thanks !

[grantis]

There are a couple of reasons I would avoid bouncing ITB.  1....it narrows your image slightly, 2....you have no idea how loud you're printing.

Buss everything to an aux, then buss out from that aux again to an audio track and record your mix in your DAW.  At that point, all you have to do is make sure it doesn't clip, and that should appease any mastering engineer.

[meverylame]

grantis wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 09:14

There are a couple of reasons I would avoid bouncing ITB.  1....it narrows your image slightly, 2....you have no idea how loud you're printing. Buss everything to an aux, then buss out from that aux again to an audio track and record your mix in your DAW.  At that point, all you have to do is make sure it doesn't clip, and that should appease any mastering engineer.

And assuming you don't have any really ridiculous regenerative effects you can punch your mix which is REAL handy.  

[j.hall]

i mix ITB but use quite a bit of outboard.  i print my "mastering mixes" about half way up the meter on the stereo track i print to.  i think in general, ITB mixer print way too hot.  you don't need to fill up that meter.  it's not a gas tank.....HA

in your exact situation, i would turn all your auxes down a few dB and print.

or tell the ME to get over it and deal with it.

[j.hall]

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 27 January 2010 19:10

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/4918/6490/ http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/15038/6490/

interesting how many guys are mixing analog.  when i heard Tchad Blake and Mike Shipley went ITB I was surprised, but then started caring less about being ITB myself.

[typek]

grantis wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 08:14

There are a couple of reasons I would avoid bouncing ITB.  1....it narrows your image slightly, 2....you have no idea how loud you're printing. Buss everything to an aux, then buss out from that aux again to an audio track and record your mix in your DAW.  At that point, all you have to do is make sure it doesn't clip, and that should appease any mastering engineer.

yes, this is the second or third time I have heard to avoid the "bounce" function. I guess its time to make the change How does bouncing ITB narrow the image? I believe you - just wondering what the concept behind it is.

j.... yeah, i pretty much ended up doing that.. after hearing some feedback form different engineer's with a little more experience - i was more confident in the levels that my mixes were at (-12 to -14ish). Plus, after mentioning it to the ME he told me not to stress about it that much, he was merely giving me an ideal level to aim for!

[NelsonL]

typek wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 05:58

grantis...ITB bounce... its weird, I have had different opinions from different engineers... One of my old teachers told me to just turn down the master fader a couple dB's. But, for some reason, that is changing the way the whole mix sounds...It gets darker and a little muddier..I'm curious as to why this is.. I will read these threads compass.. thanks !

What's on your 2 buss?

If  plugins are post fader on the master in your DAW, that could account for the difference.

[typek]

meverylame wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 10:11

And assuming you don't have any really ridiculous regenerative effects you can punch your mix which is REAL handy.

oh.. cool tip... you mean if you dont want to write automation, and just punch in changes during a print?

Nelson...I have a 2 band EQ for very slight changes to the entire mix, and that's it. I wasnt aware that Plugins could be post the master fader.. ?

[grantis]

typek wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 12:30

grantis wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 08:14 There are a couple of reasons I would avoid bouncing ITB.  1....it narrows your image slightly, 2....you have no idea how loud you're printing. Buss everything to an aux, then buss out from that aux again to an audio track and record your mix in your DAW.  At that point, all you have to do is make sure it doesn't clip, and that should appease any mastering engineer. yes, this is the second or third time I have heard to avoid the "bounce" function. I guess its time to make the change How does bouncing ITB narrow the image? I believe you - just wondering what the concept behind it is. j.... yeah, i pretty much ended up doing that.. after hearing some feedback form different engineer's with a little more experience - i was more confident in the levels that my mixes were at (-12 to -14ish). Plus, after mentioning it to the ME he told me not to stress about it that much, he was merely giving me an ideal level to aim for!

I have no idea how bouncing narrows your image.  It just does.

I also have no idea how different A/D converters narrow your image more than others either.  I doesn't make any sense to me...but they do.

[NelsonL]

typek wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 10:37

meverylame wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 10:11 And assuming you don't have any really ridiculous regenerative effects you can punch your mix which is REAL handy.   oh.. cool tip... you mean if you dont want to write automation, and just punch in changes during a print? Nelson...I have a 2 band EQ for very slight changes to the entire mix, and that's it. I wasnt aware that Plugins could be post the master fader.. ?

Yeah, I find it counterintuitive as well:

 http://duc.digidesign.com/showpost.php?p=1406372&postcou nt=5

Ignore what he says after "exactly," because the context is different in that thread.

PS, punching mixes in is great on consoles that don't have automation-- we used to do that a lot with the Ghost.

Can't say I miss that board much though.

[typek]

Interesting. Maybe the Master fader being pre insert has something to do with how the bounce function to works. I could be way off on that, but it sounds possible? I will flip through the PT manual when I get home and see if I can shine some light on the reason. Unless someone beats me to it...

[0dbfs]

KB_S1 wrote on Thu, 28 January 2010 05:56

If you really have to do this and you are running PT HD, this would be my method. Save each session as a new version: Put all audio and Aux tracks routed to MIX  into a group> Put track view into Volume Trim Use trim tool to bring the level down by 1 or 2db. This will bring everything down by the same amount relative to original fader positions throughout mix. The same could be done with a VCA group I think, need to check.

I would set up this way with the original source tracks to keep levels in check throughout the mix and try to keep the aux's at unity. Just double-check any parallel or bus processing for input/threshold level changes that would change the amount of compression.

Best,
j

[j.hall]

that seems too risky to me.  you'll have a much harder time matching your compression gain staging.