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[aeser]

i'm currently using just an akg d112 on the kick and sennheiser md421 on the snare and a pair of akg c1000s's for overheads, the md421 i dig and have no problem keeping but the d112 and c1000s's i can't stand and would like something better.

since the last recording seminar i attended pointed out the importance of good overheads (before i had mistakingly thought of overheads as just pretty much mic's to pick up cymbals, but since realized that they are to pick up all the drums in a manner which is very pleasing to the ear and more natural sounding, and that you actually get most of the tone of the drums from the overheads and only use the snare and kick to boost it in volume a bit if needed) i realize a good pair of overheads are essential, and a better kick mic would help out a lot too. i was planning on picking up an api 3124+ 4 channel mic pre for my RADAR, and wanted to get a good core minimal set of mic's to track drums with.

the pair i heard and friggin loved as overheads were neumann u87's but that's a little out of my pricerange for just the overheads (wouldn't really be able to spend over $2000 for the pair of overheads) but i'm looking for something similarly full frequency response that pick up the cymbals and snare and toms and a little bit of kick in a nice balanced way, and possibly which would be complimented by the api 3124+ pre.

any suggestions would be most appreciated.

[trexrox]

Yes, C1000's do suck for overheads... How do I know?  Because I've used them before...  But do keep one around, they're actually not a bad hi-hat mic, and can be useful on some other things as well...

Let's see... my favorite overhead mics are Neumann KM84's... not something you see mentioned around here very often, but I've recorded drums on just about every project at my studio with these mics and have had great results each time... and can get different sounds, depending on placement/eq/compresssion...  They pair up very nicely with API Mic Pres, too.  I got mine for just over $1500... but I don't know what they're going for these days.

I would suggest getting a different kik mic too.  OR try the 421 on kik and the C1000 on snare (yes, it actually sounds good, just has a lot of bleed and may contain too much hihat).

[Spooner]

We're currently using Josephson's C42MP as overheads. They're brilliant!!
$950 for a matched pair at Mercenary.

[aeser]

Spooner wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 16:24

We're currently using Josephson's C42MP as overheads. They're brilliant!! $950 for a matched pair at Mercenary.

i was considering these. are they full sounding? my c1000s's are tinny sounding and i hate it. looking to get a full drum sound just out of the overheads.

thanks

[Etch-A-Sketch]

For moderately priced overheads...I would probably recommend a pair of AKG C414B/ULS or C414TLII's.

I personally love to use 414B/ULS' on toms and the TLII can sound great on Snare for certain applications.  Plus you could use them later down the line for other instruments.  

Some people like the Shure KSM32/44 for overheads but I feel it's a little too big on the bottom end for overheads.  They work great as tom mics and are KILLER as a second kick drum mic (on the outside picking up the front head).

I sometimes like the D112, sometimes I don't.  Try the D112 with a KSM32 out in front of the kick.  I usually like the D112 a lot better when I combine it with another mic.  Some other good kick drum mics in your price range would probably be a Shure Beta52 or an Audix D6.

Personally I think you'd be better off putting the 421 inside the kick with something like a KSM44 outside...get an SM57 for the Snare and maybe some C414s for overheads.

Someone else mentioned the Neumann KM84s.  Those are great! They updated them and now they are called the KM184s.  I love them on hihat but sometimes they are a little too bright for overheads (for my taste).  I use them when I want more cymbals than anything else in the overheads.  don't get me wrong, those little guys have some great bass response, but they always sound bright to me.  I love them on acoustic guitar too!

Anyway...that's my $.02.

[redelephant]

aeser wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 23:44

Spooner wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 16:24 We're currently using Josephson's C42MP as overheads. They're brilliant!! $950 for a matched pair at Mercenary. i was considering these. are they full sounding? my c1000s's are tinny sounding and i hate it. looking to get a full drum sound just out of the overheads. thanks

Have you should tried any LD condensor mics? May I suggest a pair of 414 B-ULS or TL-II's, 4050's, or U195s?

Tube mics work pretty well for capturing the entire kit.

[Roland Storch]

For OH I like a pair of Schoeps MK2 (omni) if the room is good - I used them even on some live recordings.
The Neumann KM84 (cardiod) is very good too.

Also I like the Sennheiser MKH40 for cymbals, less as a OH main pair.

At my last recording I tried  pair of Audio Technica AT4050 and was really surprised with a good result.

As with all instruments the choice of microphones very much depends on the player, the drum set and the room. So I think in general OH mics have to be high quality microphones as it is with all main pairs or main arrays (XY, AB, ORTF, Decca Tree (not for OH), ....). That why also a pair of U89, U87, DPA 4000 series, ... could work - has anybody tried Neumann M50?

[Fletcher]

During the MOAW down at WireWorld, we tried a pair of Microtech Gefell M-930's for overheads on one of the setups... it was frighteningly good.

Overbudget in this case, and frankly I've rarely ever had a problem with a pair of C-42's... but frighteningly good none the less.  As always, YMMV.

[Spooner]

aeser wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 00:44

Spooner wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 16:24 We're currently using Josephson's C42MP as overheads. They're brilliant!! $950 for a matched pair at Mercenary. i was considering these. are they full sounding? my c1000s's are tinny sounding and i hate it. looking to get a full drum sound just out of the overheads. thanks

Well, it all depends on how full you want them to be. They pick up the entire kit in a very good way, but I still need to close-mic the kit. If you're looking for more "fat" in your overheads maybe you should consider LDC mics instead.

[aeser]

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 06:59

During the MOAW down at WireWorld, we tried a pair of Microtech Gefell M-930's for overheads on one of the setups... it was frighteningly good. Overbudget in this case, and frankly I've rarely ever had a problem with a pair of C-42's... but frighteningly good none the less.  As always, YMMV.

those are over what i paid, but only slightly so ($400 when i was talking about $2000 total anyway) i think i might go this route none the less. once i'm done with this wedding crap.

i basically want an amazing pair of overheads and a decent mic to boost the kick and a decent mic to boost the snare and these look damn nice.

do you know where i'd get one of those mic holder splitter things like in the picture on your site for them so i could mount 2 on 1 boom stand?

[trexrox]

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 18:47

Someone else mentioned the Neumann KM84s.  Those are great! They updated them and now they are called the KM184s.  I love them on hihat but sometimes they are a little too bright for overheads (for my taste).  I use them when I want more cymbals than anything else in the overheads.  don't get me wrong, those little guys have some great bass response, but they always sound bright to me.  I love them on acoustic guitar too!

Yes, but KM 84's are a different mic compared to the 184 (hence the rename) and the 84's sound MUCH better.  So much better that I wouldn't consider using a pair of 184's unless it was the only option.  The 184's are a bit brighter and harsher sounding in comparison... not ideal if you are doing digital recording, but OK if you are going to tape.

I have found that coming in over the Drummer's head and pointing the mics almost directly at the toms, you can get a good balance of the whole drum kit, and PLENTY of toms in the mics.  They have a very nice response for toms and with a little bit of compression can sound really rockin!  I use mine for the whole kit all the time.  It's just a matter of placement.  Sure, if you mic in a configuration that picks up more cymbals, they will.  But you can use the off-axis response of these mics to get the cymbals balanced very nicely.

[PRobb]

Quote:

i basically want an amazing pair of overheads and a decent mic to boost the kick and a decent mic to boost the snare and these look damn nice.

You're talking "kick, snare and a pair". Don't get hung up on the word "overhead". The "pair" is the basic sound of the kit and the close mics are there to add a bit of attack to the  kick and snare. A great place for the pair is in front of the kit at the height of the top of the rack toms, centered on the kick. the distance between the mics and the kit, and the spacing of the pair control the "roominess" and spread. Angling the mics up or down control the mix of cymbals to drums. I've had great results with this technique with 121s, 4038s, 184s. 84s, 87s and 414s. The only catch is the real stereo spread of the kit which means the snare will be a bit off center, but thats where it is in the kit.

[dejacky]

I feel I can achieve respectable results with my Oktava MK012 pair of cardoid condenser mics ($99 total for both!).

[Fletcher]

Spooner wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 08:11

Well, it all depends on how full you want them to be. They pick up the entire kit in a very good way, but I still need to close-mic the kit. If you're looking for more "fat" in your overheads maybe you should consider LDC mics instead.

yayayayaya....whoa... LDC mics's don't sound "fatter" than SDC mic's, generally different, sure... but not necessarily fatter.  If anything SDC mics [on an average] sound clearer and truer to the character of the event... LDC's will bring their own set of values to the party, but with a few exceptions, it's not necessarily a "fatter" sounding event.

[toolskid666]

how's about ribbons - beyer 160s are great for kit mics and are pretty reasonably priced too!

[ryan streber]

I'll second the ribbon idea, but I'm thinking of the Royer SF12.  Although I usually need a d6 or something to get the majority of the kick, I'm blown away by how beautifully it presents the rest of the kit as a whole.  I bought it expecting it to do wonderful things for cymbals, but it really has all but eliminated my need for snare and tom mics (assuming, of course, that the drummer's balance of the kit is decent!)  Actually, though, I've found it to "help out" the drummer quite a bit in situations where the cymbals/hats are too loud.  The snare and toms seem to really cut through mixes beautifully with a richness and "realism" that I haven't found with most condensers.  And it takes eq just beautifully, so you can get it really present and even downright bright (if you like) without things getting too "cheap", so to speak.  I generally only find a little eq if any necessary.

I'd guess that the R88 would be pretty great as well, though I have yet to try it...anyone care to comment?

[Bob Schwenkler]

i havent used the r88. i have used the r84 and rca 77dx(on separate occasions) i may try an r121 next time on drums. ive not used these more than a couple times on drums, but i like what ive gotten out of the 77s more. having used a royer on other stuff, i feel like i might prefer them over the r84 for what im trying to get... a fat snare sound, strong toms, and mix in some condenser to get a crisp cymbal sound.

[mwkeene]

Although a little bit off topic from what you guys are talking about, I threw up an old omni dynamic sennheiser md-21 about 10 feet out in front of a kit the other day and it sounded magnificent.  I had some huge limitations in the number of tracks so I was only able to put up two other mics, and they ended up being my mojave audio tube LDCs on overheads.  One of the best drum sounds I have gotten yet.
-Mike  

[Fletcher]

Just got the SM-69 back from Tony over at Stephen Paul Audio... fuck me if this mic isn't the balls... it's so damn big and clear... [I really wanted to hate it so I could sell it... unfortunately, that's not the case]

[Carnac]

Wish I could hear that one. I dig stereo mics for OH cause lack of phase issues and having a solid image are less things to worry about come mix time. Been using the Soundfield on this drummer with great balance and dynamic control. It doesn't get any easier to set up one mic housing to cover the kit.

[Duardo]

I've had great results with a pair of Royer R121's...and a pair of Earthworks omni microphones would fit nicely into your budget as well.  With both types of microphones I've done tracks where I've wound up not even using the tracks I did with close microphones at all because they've sounded so good.  It all does depend on the sound you're going for, of course...

-Duardo

[djui5]

Fletcher wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 05:43

Spooner wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 08:11 Well, it all depends on how full you want them to be. They pick up the entire kit in a very good way, but I still need to close-mic the kit. If you're looking for more "fat" in your overheads maybe you should consider LDC mics instead. yayayayaya....whoa... LDC mics's don't sound "fatter" than SDC mic's, generally different, sure... but not necessarily fatter.  If anything SDC mics [on an average] sound clearer and truer to the character of the event... LDC's will bring their own set of values to the party, but with a few exceptions, it's not necessarily a "fatter" sounding event.

I'd have to agree......

My fav SD OH mic's are B&K 4011's. Also great are EW SR77's, SM81's, AT4051's, Neumann KM84's
LD OH's work well and would be favorable for a 4 mic drum set-up.
I'd recommend a pair of 4050's....I use em all the time for OH's and they work. Probably not the best for "vintage rock" but they're good for modern rock, pop, country, whatever, and whatever else.

For kick I'd recommend getting a B52 and using another LD condensor about 2-3ft back....

Might wanna try a 57 for room...I'm loving this.

Then..for the ultimate in OH you could use a pair of either E-LAM 251's or the Blue U47's....
Sweet momma...

[lucey]

ryan_streber wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 17:44

I'll second the ribbon idea, but I'm thinking of the Royer SF12.  Although I usually need a d6 or something to get the majority of the kick, I'm blown away by how beautifully it presents the rest of the kit as a whole.  I bought it expecting it to do wonderful things for cymbals, but it really has all but eliminated my need for snare and tom mics (assuming, of course, that the drummer's balance of the kit is decent!)  Actually, though, I've found it to "help out" the drummer quite a bit in situations where the cymbals/hats are too loud.  The snare and toms seem to really cut through mixes beautifully with a richness and "realism" that I haven't found with most condensers.  And it takes eq just beautifully, so you can get it really present and even downright bright (if you like) without things getting too "cheap", so to speak.  I generally only find a little eq if any necessary. I'd guess that the R88 would be pretty great as well, though I have yet to try it...anyone care to comment?

Has anyone done the R88/SF12 comparison?

[ted nightshade]

Sometimes one overhead, or main kit mic, is preferable. It can be more solid and focused that way. And on a budget, you may be able to afford one great mic but not two.

[malice]

Spooner wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 14:11

aeser wrote on Wed, 28 July 2004 00:44 Spooner wrote on Tue, 27 July 2004 16:24 We're currently using Josephson's C42MP as overheads. They're brilliant!! $950 for a matched pair at Mercenary. i was considering these. are they full sounding? my c1000s's are tinny sounding and i hate it. looking to get a full drum sound just out of the overheads. thanks Well, it all depends on how full you want them to be. They pick up the entire kit in a very good way, but I still need to close-mic the kit. If you're looking for more "fat" in your overheads maybe you should consider LDC mics instead.

Since when sd condensers are less "fat" than LDC ????

malice

[John Ivan]

This mat sound nuts but, I like a pair of PZM's in the room for some kits. I still close mic the drums and do a pair over. There is nothing about these mics that is really flat but they "have a sound" to be sure. I compress the hell out of them when I mix in some cases. If the room is good, it's huge. Sometimes, I dig a room that is all fucked up.Bumps in response and strange reflections can be "artful"..

For kick, I like an RE-20 in the drum and a LDC out in front. One thing I learned a long time ago was to know the rules AND be willing to break them too..

Sure is fun....

P.S. I've been using a small clip on AT mic {can't remember the model off hand} for snare and it's been amazing. Cheap pile of shit. sounds great on snare..

[Yellowguy]

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 06:00

Just got the SM-69 back from Tony over at Stephen Paul Audio... fuck me if this mic isn't the balls... it's so damn big and clear... [I really wanted to hate it so I could sell it... unfortunately, that's not the case]

I have an SM69 FET that I like a lot.
What I've been doing lately for stereo OH is using it in MS. I think this is pretty cool, I get the solid sound of a mono OH from the cardioid and can dial in the amount of width I desire (if any) from the fig8.

I haven't really heard much about using MS for overheads, anybody else doing it?

Marco

[vernier]

Single 77DX on boom here (and really like it).

[brandondrury]

Quote:

i basically want an amazing pair of overheads and a decent mic to boost the kick and a decent mic to boost the snare and these look damn nice.

I hope you are the drummer.  If you are going to be recording a selection of drummers, every damn one of them better be able to balance their kits.  While the talent level of drummers that I work with is not as high as I would like it to be, I've only found 2-3 drummers that sound good with the simple mic trick.  I've tried it on many.

I did an XY with a pair of MK012s about 6 feet in front of a very nice DW.  This sounded amazing until it came time to destroy his crash cymbal repeatedly.  Then I had no control.  Good thing I had close mics as a backup.


I've been using an RE20 outside the kick and it's just OKAY for me.  I borrowed the Shure equivalent of the D112 and I liked it alot.  The SM91 in the kick and the egg Shure mic outside the hole was monstrous.  I tried a 421 about halfway in the kick and I was very very suprised.  It was a nice tight sound.  Different, but very usable.  It reminded of the kick on Money For Nothin' more or less.

The R121 does have a way of ignoring the cymbals as an overhead.  You will not get crystal clear, bright tones without massive eq though.  I love it because it brings out the chunk in the snare and toms.  

Brandon

[J.J. Blair]

I have a tube SM69 that I use in Blumlein or M/S for OHs sometimes.  It's awesome.  

As far as minimalism goes, I recently recorded drums with just a D12 on the kick and a single U47 OH.  Ran both through 1073s, EQ'd to taste and then crushed the shit out of the U47.  I was going for that sound on the first Roxy Music record and I got it all right.

[Johnny B]

Anyone try using the Earthworks "3 drum mic" system?

Just curious to know if set-up is quick and easy and whether or not it gets good results in real world use.