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Author Topic: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?  (Read 7521 times)

dconstruction

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Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« on: December 18, 2009, 06:35:34 PM »

OK, caveat: I've not had the experience than many of you have.  Maybe you're more prepared for the changes that mastering provides.  But, here I am, listening back to albums I've sweated over for literally years that have finally finished (OK, and other projects I sweated over for days), and I am STARTLED by the lack of dynamics.  Where'd the snare go?  What the F happened to the lead vocal?  Why are the wide-panned BGVox now overtaking EVERYTHING?  

To be honest, the tonal shifts I'm OK with.  Some additional clarity, some brightening, and de-muddifying that I'm appreciative of.  But seriously, the volume issues are outrageous.  I have a super busy, highly percussive rock track preceding a nice piano ballad, and the vocal level is WAY out of proportion between the two.  It's almost as if they just slapped a go-to limiter preset on the whole thing and said, "done: that'll be $1200."  I've had to request volume automation, EQ shifts, mid-side processing - and don't get me started on the sloppy edits in and out of songs.  Can no one fade musically?  Segue musically?  Is it so hard to imagine that someone with ears would get that two songs should begin their crossfade on a downbeat?  Do I have to be so explicit with my instructions - and if I am, do I have to get so much attitude back from the ME?  

The bands are largely oblivious.  They're just so damn happy to be closing in on the finish line that they've lost objectivity.  But this is my work as much as theirs (in my eyes, er, ears) and I want it to be right.

Now.  Let me also say I've had some great experiences - but I've also never heard an ME make a suggestion as to how the mix could be altered to help the song, or the mastering, or to point out deficiencies that were brought to light in mastering (and believe me, an extra 6-12db of gain brings a lot to the fore).  I really would appreciate that.  For instance, I had a recent album done in which one room ribbon mic was high in the mix.  It provided a nice vibe, but boy was it noisy after all that gain.  At the behest of the band (and I agreed with them) the hiss and noise was out of place with the rest of the tracks and I remixed.  Why wouldn't a "golden eared" ME mention something like that?  Are we not in this together?

And while I will name no names, these are mastering facilities that have done major-label records.  Oddly, the best customer service and attention to detail has come from the lesser names - albeit with some noticeable differences in (dare I say it) transparent loudness.  Honestly, I have no idea what I'm paying for (or, rather, the bands are) when it comes to differences between mastering engineers.

OK.  </rant>

L
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Fibes

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 09:37:00 PM »

Te only time i've had bad experiences is when I'm not a part of the selection process.

That said I NEVER listen to mastered records on the same system I mixed it on as a reference point. It's a mistake to do so IMO.
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NelsonL

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 02:48:54 AM »

I just had one come back while I was in NY staying with a friend who also happens to be an engineer. Initially everything seemed OK on his very humble home setup, and I emailed the client to say as much, adding that I'd like to hear it on a fuller range system. I did notice some kind of stereo image processing going on at that point, but just made a note to withhold judgement since it seemed alright from the cheap seats.

This was a mistake, because when I heard it at my friends studio I realized it was really edgy and harsh sounding. Further listening in other environments validates this reaction.

At that point, I didn't feel comfortable telling the client my reaction, because he was already preparing to have the thing manufactured and had relayed his satisfaction to the ME-- a friend of his from high school. Now, this is basically a vanity project, and the client was happy, so I though it best to let it go. I'm 99% likely to get this guys work again and in the future I'll ensure we go with someone else to master. I feel bad not telling him my real opinion, but I really don't want to undermine his confidence.

I don't mean to dismiss anyone out of hand, but I didn't have any input on hiring this guy, and I'm always a little wary of professional sound designers who also do mastering, as I'd prefer a specialist, not a GP.

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Devin Knutson

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 12:52:24 PM »

dconstruction wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 15:35

 and don't get me started on the sloppy edits in and out of songs.  Can no one fade musically?  Segue musically?  Is it so hard to imagine that someone with ears would get that two songs should begin their crossfade on a downbeat?  Do I have to be so explicit with my instructions - and if I am, do I have to get so much attitude back from the ME?  



I have learned over the years that I basically have a giant stick up my ass when it comes to fades and transitions.  If it's not exactly  the way I want it (and I mean exactly), I will hate it.  I mean, first and last impressions and all that, right?  There is just no wiggle room at all for me on this.

So, yes...  you have to be that explicit with your instructions, but give these instructions up front when the mix is delivered and before the ME has even heard it.  If you still get attitude, hire someone else (sounds to me like the person you were working with may have been slightly less than professional).

Or, do what I do - If you cannot attend the Mastering session, do the fades and transitions yourself.
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wwittman

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 03:09:24 PM »

I always feel much BETTER after mastering.

Yes, I GO to the session, and yes, I have a long time relationship with my mastering engineer(s)

but I gain the confidence of hearing it in a critical environment and with the input of a respected professional partner

and I always end up leaving with a record that sounds just about the way I always hoped it would.

Like my mixes but MORE so.

and this is usually accomplished with very little intervention (but not always)

the main thing is to know what you have before you get there, and not hope to "fix" it or change it dramatically in mastering.


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William Wittman
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j.hall

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 12:37:53 AM »

i actually quite enjoy mastering now.  i feel like mastering gives my work that last couple percent of pop i'm looking for.  

it certainly doesn't hurt that 95% (if not higher) of all my work goes to Brad Blackwood, and despite he and i having a long friendship and working relationship, he's top notch and things are handled with uber attention to detail.  i've never heard a bad fade from him.  always sounds natural.

honestly, i can't remember the last recall he's done for me that wasn't something stupid like tightening up spacing between a song or two.  EQ and level are great every time.

ok, enough of that.

one big thing that has helped me tremendously is that i monitor my mixes at "mastering" level.  i print them that loud for client approval and do all recalls at that level.  i print through a mytek ADC, and i can crush that crap out of it and it sounds great.

say what you will about that, but i can promise you that being surprised by a master since i've been doing this simply hasn't happened.

when the mix is approved, i print the final version MUCH quieter.  however, aside from EQ that Brad applies, the way my mix responds to the mastering level change is no surprise.  and honestly, the process of getting a mix loud and still feeling good is exactly what inflicts the most change upon a mix.

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iCombs

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 02:39:52 AM »

I'm with Weedy and j. on this.  I've literally only had good experiences.  Again here, though...it's a guy who I've worked with a fair amount and whose ears and judgment I trust.  That really is the biggest key when it comes to mastering, IMO.  Finding a guy who isn't simply competent...but one whose competency you can trust.
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Ian Combs
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Tomas Danko

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 05:45:00 AM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 05:37

i actually quite enjoy mastering now.  i feel like mastering gives my work that last couple percent of pop i'm looking for.  

it certainly doesn't hurt that 95% (if not higher) of all my work goes to Brad Blackwood, and despite he and i having a long friendship and working relationship, he's top notch and things are handled with uber attention to detail.  i've never heard a bad fade from him.  always sounds natural.

honestly, i can't remember the last recall he's done for me that wasn't something stupid like tightening up spacing between a song or two.  EQ and level are great every time.

ok, enough of that.

one big thing that has helped me tremendously is that i monitor my mixes at "mastering" level.  i print them that loud for client approval and do all recalls at that level.  i print through a mytek ADC, and i can crush that crap out of it and it sounds great.

say what you will about that, but i can promise you that being surprised by a master since i've been doing this simply hasn't happened.

when the mix is approved, i print the final version MUCH quieter.  however, aside from EQ that Brad applies, the way my mix responds to the mastering level change is no surprise.  and honestly, the process of getting a mix loud and still feeling good is exactly what inflicts the most change upon a mix.




I do just the same, running the material through two stages of Waves L2 working overtime, just for reference. I also listen to this version in my iPhone/iPod when I'm out and about, to figure out what I need to adjust in the mix.

Once I'm done, I also print at low levels with no limiting or such, and I've never been surprised in the mastering room.

Besides proper balancing to begin with, this has made my mixes tolerate a hard hand during mastering without breaking up.

Some couch experts tend to call on my early mixes and point out that certain things are too loud. But I ask them if their mixes can be played at full blast through the iPhone speaker or tiny earbuds without crapping out while still sounding good on full format systems. Turns out that's their problem when they mix. My stuff translate just fine these days.
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typek

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 01:21:35 PM »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 23:37


one big thing that has helped me tremendously is that i monitor my mixes at "mastering" level.  i print them that loud for client approval and do all recalls at that level.  




can you explain this? so before you print for mastering you remove limiters etc, but while mixing stuff you use them for level?



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wwittman

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 02:19:53 PM »

well, I can;t speak for J., but that's NOT what I do


I will make CD's by hitting the front of the A-D convertor fairly hard to get up to close to my anticipated CD level
and in the place I typically do this, I have the same A-D convertor that I in fact will end up using with my mastering engineer at Sterling
and he TOO is going to achieve the level by how hard he prints through the A-D not in software

we only stick a limiter on top to protect the last bit- typically pulled down only .5dB, no more


in those cases when I am mixing ITB I don't much worry about the level. I keep it conservative and simply don't find it's a problem when I get to mastering.

it's the software limiters that change the sound, so if you don't much USE them there's nothing to worry about, in my experience.
I don't find that the simple act of recording my mix into the computer a little hotter at mastering changes the sound appreciably.


I also want to say, just to be clear, that I am NOT trying to make the world's loudest record holding CDs.
That whole volume war thing is a huge waste of time and a bad idea on the whole.


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William Wittman
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j.hall

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2009, 12:34:03 AM »

typek wrote on Wed, 23 December 2009 12:21

j.hall wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 23:37


one big thing that has helped me tremendously is that i monitor my mixes at "mastering" level.  i print them that loud for client approval and do all recalls at that level.  




can you explain this? so before you print for mastering you remove limiters etc, but while mixing stuff you use them for level?






no limiters.

i don't bounce to disk.  while i do mix ITB, i use a fair amount of outboard gear.  some of that gear is part of the 2buss chain.  i bring that back into PT on a stereo track.  it is set to input monitor so i'm constantly listening all the way through the chain.  that last thing in the chain is a mytek ADC.  while i'm mixing i'm hitting the mytek very hard.  so i'm basically listening to what the mix will sound like when mastered.  

when i print the mix, i back off and print the mix and a "typical" level.

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wwittman

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2009, 02:15:39 AM »

ah, so you and I ARE doing more or less the same thing

but at your final mastering, is your mastering engineer also using a Mytek A-D?


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William Wittman
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Hallams

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2009, 07:25:50 AM »

wwittman wrote on Thu, 24 December 2009 06:19

well, I can;t speak for J., but that's NOT what I do


I will make CD's by hitting the front of the A-D convertor fairly hard to get up to close to my anticipated CD level
and in the place I typically do this, I have the same A-D convertor that I in fact will end up using with my mastering engineer at Sterling
and he TOO is going to achieve the level by how hard he prints through the A-D not in software

we only stick a limiter on top to protect the last bit- typically pulled down only .5dB, no more


in those cases when I am mixing ITB I don't much worry about the level. I keep it conservative and simply don't find it's a problem when I get to mastering.

it's the software limiters that change the sound, so if you don't much USE them there's nothing to worry about, in my experience.
I don't find that the simple act of recording my mix into the computer a little hotter at mastering changes the sound appreciably.


I also want to say, just to be clear, that I am NOT trying to make the world's loudest record holding CDs.
That whole volume war thing is a huge waste of time and a bad idea on the whole.




So can i assume from this that you are using the soft limit function of the A/D converter as the limiter to catch any overs when recording a mix from analogue to disk?
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grantis

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2009, 10:39:57 AM »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 25 December 2009 01:15

ah, so you and I ARE doing more or less the same thing

but at your final mastering, is your mastering engineer also using a Mytek A-D?





As I **hopefully** understand it, matching the converter that will be used in the mastering process is not the idea of the exercise.  It's to approximate how levels will change at loud volumes through any A/D, in order to prepare for your mix to be enlisted in 'the war'.  Granted all A/D's are at least slightly different.  J's method seems to be an approximation of sorts; yet, a very close approximation.
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Daniel Farris

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Re: Anyone Else Hate Mastering?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2009, 12:02:04 PM »

In 15 years of sending projects to mastering, I've only ever been truly miserably unhappy twice, and one of those was done by a very expensive engineer in Maine... who clearly was trying to change the mix... a mix the label and artist both liked just fine the way it was.

DF
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