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[presto]

I have read some of the other threads regarding reference tracks and also vinyl mastering.  I have a question that has come to mind from this...

Is a track taken from a commercial mixed CD (dance music) suitable as a reference track?

I'm just thinking of the various processes that this track would have been trough by the time I hear it on the CD (assuming that the CD has been mixed conventionally from vinyl, and not digitally mixed):

1. Original mixing and mastering of track
2. Mastering to vinyl
3. Play back from vinyl when recording set for mix CD
5. Mastering of the final mix CD

Is it realistic to think that I can emulate these processes in my mixes (before mastering)  Should I even be trying to do this? Would I be better off using a CD single (not mixed from vinyl) of a track that I like?  

Or, am I being over analytical of the process- if so, why doesn't it matter?

I am only just beginning to use reference tracks and would like to understand fully what I should consider before deciding what might or might not be suitable.

Thanks if you can help, this is my first post on this site and from what I have read so far I have been really impressed with the quality of the forum.

thanks
presto

..............
Steven Preston

[bobkatz]

presto wrote on Mon, 19 July 2004 18:19

I have read some of the other threads regarding reference tracks and also vinyl mastering.  I have a question that has come to mind from this... Is a track taken from a commercial mixed CD (dance music) suitable as a reference track?

From my point of view, NO!  Unless you want to prolong the awful cycle of loudness and decreasing quality.

I suggest you look for a suitable track that is as close to a great-sounding raw mix as possible. Learn what "clean", good sounding mixes sound like. I get dance stuff that sounds good and can be turned into a great master, and some that has been ruined to death. Compression on top of compression rarely helps.

In theory, if you find a great sounding already-mastered track, you could try to emulate it, but the temptation to go for its level instead of just for its sound is very hard to resist.

I do not think I have any dance tracks on the honor roll, but this is just because I can't keep up with everything. Send me your recommendations and (in my copious free time) I'll try to add something appropriate from the dance field to the honor roll.

My honor roll can be found at   http://www.digido.com, in the articles. The preamble at the top of the article will help explain what it's all about.

Quote:

I'm just thinking of the various processes that this track would have been trough by the time I hear it on the CD (assuming that the CD has been mixed conventionally from vinyl, and not digitally mixed): 1. Original mixing and mastering of track 2. Mastering to vinyl 3. Play back from vinyl when recording set for mix CD 5. Mastering of the final mix CD Is it realistic to think that I can emulate these processes in my mixes (before mastering)  Should I even be trying to do this?

"Emulate"?  I have a hard time trying to "predict" what some other artist/engineer is going to do and I think it will set you in a quirky direction. I often have problems when mixing engineers try to second guess what I will do to their work in mastering. Since I don't have a formula, how can they? Get a real-great sounding mix, and then make sure the mastering engineer doesn't ruin it and improves on it (which is getting increasingly rarer and rarer in dance music)

Quote:

I am only just beginning to use reference tracks and would like to understand fully what I should consider before deciding what might or might not be suitable.

Once again, try to find the best references you can, and it will be hard to find them "unmastered", unfortunately. I do have a before/after comparison of a dance track on Digital Domain's demo cd, but this is just one man's (mine) example of what sounds good, you need to check out lots more than just this, though mine might get you started on thinking what sounds good to Bob  


BK

[presto]

Thank you very much Bob for your answers, you have confirmed my suspicions and clarified a few doubts. I am glad that I asked.  You are right about the temptation of chasing level, I am also a sucker for that compressed sound, it really bangs on the dance floor at high levels.  Guess I have to discipline myself not to push it in my unmastered tracks.

Thanks for your track suggestion, how would I go about getting a copy of Digital Domain's demo cd, is it possible?.  I guess that you are also right about the difficulty involved in finding raw mixes to use as references- does anyone else have any suggestions of where to find such tracks? (I am writing songs in two quite different genres at the moment- tech/deep house and then more up tempo techno/trance {think Tiesto/Ferry Corsten}.)

Bob, I will have a search through my fav CD's but not sure if I will be able to recommend any tracks for the hall of fame as the same problem applies, most of the tunes I have are on mixed CD compilations...  will let you know

thanks again Bob

presto

..............
Steven Preston

[Level]

I have a CD that excells in the genre' you are talking about. It is not clipped, it is not compressed and it has very wide bandwidth and flat powerband response. They also are getting pretty rare. I have had 5 of them stolen from me. It is now on hard drive.

Frankie goes to Hollywood "Welcome to the pleasuredome."


Plenty of dance tracks on the album. Two tribes simply kicks ass.


It may not be your type of music but it certainly has great sonics and is a reference which I still go back...to "reset" my ears when dealing with this type of music.

Stands the test of time. This production was done when they "gave a damn" (of course, we do too)

Splendid production.

[Bob Olhsson]

There are quality references but there are also contemporary commercial references.

These are important because out client's CDs are surely going to be compared to them. One of the most important things we can each do for the community is KNOWING what's out there and making certain we aren't contributing to the level wars problem while at the same time not penalizing our clients.

[Johnny B]

Bob Katz,

That link does not seem to work, should it be something else?

[steve parker]

johnny,
take the comma out of the link.....

steve.

[bobkatz]

presto wrote on Wed, 21 July 2004 17:04

Thank you very much Bob for your answers, you have confirmed my suspicions and clarified a few doubts. I am glad that I asked.  You are right about the temptation of chasing level, I am also a sucker for that compressed sound, it really bangs on the dance floor at high levels.  Guess I have to discipline myself not to push it in my unmastered tracks.

It's tough. There's a certain level above which things just get worse. At the least, I say, if anyone's going to ruin your music, let it be the mastering engineer .  Preferably no one.

Quote:

Thanks for your track suggestion, how would I go about getting a copy of Digital Domain's demo cd, is it possible?.

Just send me a PM and I'll take care of you.

Quote:

Bob, I will have a search through my fav CD's but not sure if I will be able to recommend any tracks for the hall of fame as the same problem applies, most of the tunes I have are on mixed CD compilations...  will let you know

Finding good-sounding Dance CDs is getting harder and harder. I just did some LP and CD masters for a cute British label called "Kinky Disco", which I am really proud of and it plays perfectly in the clubs, he reports. He is VERY cognizant of the level issue and we never even had to discuss it. I made his masters at a level where any hotter and the sound would have gone downhill. His LP master (Digital files at 2496) was a classic "K-14", ready for vinyl.