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Author Topic: are we on the verge or not  (Read 5041 times)

j.hall

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are we on the verge or not
« on: July 23, 2004, 12:14:19 PM »

i've been saying for about a year now that another bing music "movement" will happen "soon"

the garage rock thing was an obvious flash in the pan and at least to me, it's already over

but has anyone else scratched their head at the recent popularity of the flaming lips, modest mouse.....

bands that seem so far away from commercial are breaking through.

it has the making......

something totally different, totally unexpected......

is this the verge of something very cool, or another flash in the pan

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TotalSonic

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2004, 03:36:24 AM »

Gee - and here I thought you were going to ask "are we on the verge of a worldwide petroleum production peak which will dramatically impact the livelihoods of all humanity - including those of us in fields such as audio production that can be looked on as societal luxuries??"  - which in case like me you agree with Matt Simmons and Colin Campbell then the answer is most likely yes!!! (check out http://www.globalpublicmedia.com for starters if you have no idea what I'm talking about)

But - yeah - we do seem to be a point where a lot of people are finally wanting real quality instead of corporate girl/boy "band" schmaltz and there's been a number of artists like Modest Mouse & Antibalas, &  Lungfish & Zoe Keating & Kanye West & Mission Of Burma & Method Man & Maya Beiser & God Speed etc. etc. making awesome sounding stuff recently.  

Best regards,
Steve Berson

xonlocust

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2004, 04:41:08 PM »

man-

i sure hope so! it's like the carrot dangling in your face! but seriously, one thing that's cool to note is look how long the lips and modest mouse have been around, and they're starting to get the recogntion now (on a larger scale).  it's inspiring to know that that "sucess" can grow and doesn't need to be an overnight thing.  i mean, i got a CASSETTE SINGLE from the flaming lips when i saw them in 93, and they were even on warner way back then.

everybody say it with me, "we don't need to pander to the lowest common denominator - we can still make good music and the people will eventually come around!"

hahaha............  

actually, funny mentioning them, because it was the "turn it on" single, i think the "she don't use jelly" song was on there too.  anyway, i was out just last night with another engineer and musician and that song came on they were pointing out how flat wayne's singing was.  

(rhetorical) do you think that'd be autotuned out if that came out now?  it was just interesting to think back about it and picture that that must have been all pre pro-tools/autotune.

Zoesch

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2004, 03:01:55 AM »

Honest answer? No... it's the whitewash from what should've been a movement from the late 90's early 00's, I do think a new movement will eventually happen but not with the current generation of bands.
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Chad Sims

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2004, 11:27:18 AM »

Yeah sure alot of people are making interesting records right this second but we all know that as soon as any of these records make the majors any kind of money that every record is going to sound the same again.  I never have a problem finding interesting records to buy or interesting bands to record. So I really don't see how it makes a difference if there is anything interesting on the radio we all know all this is going to do is create a huge wave of untalented song writers who rip off the above mentioned acts that the majors are gonna scoop up and force down our throats as always. This changes nothing.  Wow did that sound bitter, sorry. Smile
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Fibes

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2004, 11:51:42 AM »

I'm too old to know what's cool so i don't give a shit. Rock can go ahead and keep rotting, hip hop has already knocked rock's dick in the dirt. Sooner or later something awesome and new will come along and none of you will be able to identify with it. That's just the way it goes.
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Fibes
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jimmyjazz

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2004, 03:40:57 PM »

Did you happen to catch the issue of Time Magazine a while back that annointed Spoon as their "band to watch"?  That was refreshing.  Slowly but surely Spoon keeps building an audience . . . they sure as hell have earned it.
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drumsound

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2004, 09:25:05 PM »

I'm ready for a new "flavor."  I think the Lips will continue on their road, but not become huge.  I can't see it happening for Modest Mouse either.  It?s hard to listen to the whole record with that voice...
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ahuimanu

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2004, 06:40:50 AM »

personally,

I am surprised that we are waiting for the record biz, media, what-have-you apparatus for signs of a next wave: clear channel is playing cool-guy bands, Time says this, etc.

Yes, it is occasionally beneficial to all for the mainstream and the "lunatic fringe" to dance in close proximity (punk, new wave, college rock, grunge, alt, emo, skate-punk, etc.), but in general, the selling machine will do little for the indie rock scene.

I have been out of the music scene for a living since roughly about the time the Internet should have revolutionized it, but it looks like the latency of the revolution is longer than I expected.

While movements are nice for the "best of breed" to get their props, they do little to encourage consistent diversity or true innovation and generally waste a few years while movements work themselves out.

Look, with the Internet, we really have a way to be connected to each other in a fashion that does not require the centralization and aggregation of information for the purposes of dissemination (I mean this in the most commercial of senses - of course the Internet IS ITSELF what I have just described).  As the Internet passed through some key maturity stages, we let the man stick it to us with Digital Rights legislation and the like - which has great motivation in theory, but is engineered to prop up the dinosaurs in practice.

When you consider the close tether that the professional crowd within these forums has to the leviathan we call the music business, I suppose being preoccupied with movements and trends is important from a bread-and-butter (or at least from a familiarization/awareness) stand point.

Here is my firm belief - music will rise again in terms of being a true enrichment to our lives when things go grassroots again.  By this I mean:

+ local/regional radio

+ strong local/regional record outlets

+ strong genre-specific focus outlets on the Internet that support the strong local/regional record outlets

+ a strong and varied live/original (and cover!) local/regional music scene.  Today, in all but the largest markets, live music struggles.

+ use of the Internet to reduce the commercial aggregate focus on music (a corporate approach relies on economies of scale that are counter to the aims of art)

+ dissolution of the "rock star" ethic that has proved to ruin music.  This is the promise of fame, fortune, hits, limos, benz, enz, bling-bling, etc. that, I feel, has brain-washed us all.  This may sound socialist to you but, why not a modest/moderate income for many than a system that rewards few and uses up/washes out many?  I am thinking of Albini's "some of your friends are already this fucked" paper on the typical outcome for those that "make it" and get their first deal.  A & R seems to have nothing to do with artist development anymore.

Look, now that we can really work amongst ourselves to get information about music between ourselves; and now that we have reliable and somewhat legal means to buy music on the Internet, maybe what we need is a cultural social shift away from the trappings of the past and the habits and rituals that come with them.  We don't need to worry about the fucking billboard, or MTV, or the Warped Tour or any of the same bullshit - the revolution will not be televised.  The revolution (like all good revolutions) will come when we reject the system of the old and move forward ourselves - recording our own music, playing our own shows, and buying/selling/trading our music between ourselves.  

The punk-indie rock scene has had trappings of this for the last 20 years, with underground shows, zines, 7-inch subscription deals and the like.  Sadly, we have are all programmed, from an early age, to subconsciously plot a trajectory to success for our well-nurtured indie scenes, where success is painted against the economies-of-scale corporate-profits ethic.  Turn on MTV for a second to see how the brainwash (in just one incarnation) works:

bling-bling, pimp-my-ride, look at my crib, look, I am living large, I am rich, I am famous.

Even with the "making the band" series, they never focused on a band at all - nobody played a goddammed thing in those "bands."

Now, I know it is silly to come to a setting such as this using MTV as an exemplar - that dross holds no sway here.  However, places like MTV, Billboard, etc. are still considered "the top" and are almost always used a measures of success.  Movements are parasitically fed upon from above - and cultural brainwash, including a natural and healthy desire to have a wad of dough, usually has the indie guy being presented with the apple of desire taking the bite.  

I do not blame or hold success against ANY great and hard-working indie band when success is wafted their way; as the aussies would say: "good on ya!"  However, almost by definition, entering into the arena of the man is the end of innocence.  Aren't there better definitions of success?  If I could naively believe that all of us buying their major-label record was the ultimate expression of our collective patronage, all would be well.  However, I think most of us in here know better - WAY BETTER.  Can we have the collective patronage without resorting to the music industry apparatus?  Some, like Todd Rungren, have tried and have found that music fans are now acculturated to the way the machine works - we have not evolved enough to ween ourselves of the "way it works."

We are a consumer society and can't help ourselves in terms of aspiring to the trappings of succeses - cool, nothing wrong with toys, fun and excess.  But what does this have to do with art? What is indie about this?  Well, nothing and most "indie" folk know it.

Sorry for the rant.  Basically, being older now and having been an "indie dude" for the last 25 years now, I must encourage those of us on this side of the fence to not concern ourselves with fads, trends and movements - they are the trappings of the apparatus that MUST BE PUT DOWN.
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j.hall

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2004, 09:20:48 AM »

very well said....
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trexrox

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2004, 05:12:31 PM »

ahuimanu wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 06:40

Sorry for the rant.  Basically, being older now and having been an "indie dude" for the last 25 years now, I must encourage those of us on this side of the fence to not concern ourselves with fads, trends and movements - they are the trappings of the apparatus that MUST BE PUT DOWN.


Don't be sorry for anything.  I think you've gotten it right.  Don't be pinned down by or limited to a fad or a trend.  This is not the basis for a "movement".  

Though, historically speaking, the movements that have come and gone aren't really considered fads or trends now.  They are all considered important in their own way.

But trying to create a movement or fad just for the sake of having one, isn't going to work either.  

And, looking toward the popular media to tell us that there is a movement or not?  WHAT?  What that should tell you is, it's already on it's way out, if anything.
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ahuimanu

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2004, 05:36:09 AM »

Good correction on terminology there...

We don't know movements until they are done and subjects of history.  However, I strongly suspect people who are key players in a movement are keenly aware of the phenomenon while it is happening:

Prog Rock, Punk, New Wave, Disco, etc.
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Zoesch

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2004, 10:18:56 PM »

Correct, also (being old enough to have gone through more than a couple of movements myself) remember that movements are endemic, it's an inner circle that grows via exposure and word of mouth, but until they are on their dying legs (Or exposed in the mainstream) movements are inward looking.
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Bivouac

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2004, 01:45:04 AM »

Another piece of evidence:

The Pixies have a feature article on the Yahoo homepage right now, right next to the Kobe Bryant trial, hurricanes in Florida, and news in the Middle East...

Never woulda thunk it...
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Bivouac

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Re: are we on the verge or not
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2004, 02:26:58 AM »

ahuimanu wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 04:40



Sorry for the rant.  Basically, being older now and having been an "indie dude" for the last 25 years now, I must encourage those of us on this side of the fence to not concern ourselves with fads, trends and movements - they are the trappings of the apparatus that MUST BE PUT DOWN.


Ok, while I agree with you on a number of points.  I'm going to disagree on few...

While I haven't been a part of the "indie scene" for 25 years like you have, I've been able to participate, first hand, in this huge punk rock revolution via the internet.  No other generation of people are going to understand its significance like I could--this revolution relates directly to people my age.  I'm almost 20 years old and when I was 12-13, I began listening to a lot of indie label music for the first time.  Also at this time, the internet was becoming very common in households.  I could discover a dozen bands in a single evening simply by searching label websites.  Then, through this wonderful software program called "Napster", I could find out what these bands sounded like.  After all that, I had no inhabitions to spend my money on CD's.

NEVER before has anyone had this ability to sample indie music outside of your local scene.  I discovered little bands from all over the country that couldn't sell out a 200 capacity club that are now topping charts and headlining huge summer festivals.  The internet took an already thriving underground scene and kicked it high gear--the majors were forced to take notice.

Why do I think this will eventually carry over into the traditional "indie rock" scene?  Because this same generation is growing out of The Ataris, AFI, Alkaline Trio, etc.  Chances are they heard The Get Up Kids and Jimmy Eat World a few years ago and their musical tastes have been broadening ever since.  Right about now, we're getting to Pinback, Explosions in the Sky, and Vanderslice...Smile

Now, what I do agree with you on is that the majority of major labels and MTV have no idea what's good for the music industry.  However, I feel that labels like Dreamworks, Island, and even Columbia are starting to figure it out and television networks like Fuse are an excellent alternative to the "Music" Television Network.

Majors have been buying up indie labels like crazy for the last few years and have thrown tons of money and publicity at them while allowing them to operate as they did before.  As sad as a lot of the bands on Vagrant, Drive-Thru, and Victory are, they have it MADE!  A band like Taking Back Sunday goes from being a piece of shit on an indie label to being a piece of shit that debuted their new album at #3--Right up there next Avril Lavigne, Beyonce, and Muddle of Pudd.

This is going to be their business model of the future in my opinion.  These record companies have proven that they can't find talent.  All they need to do is invest in people that can.  These bands are cheap to take care of, and there's THOUSANDS of them.

I guess we'll see...    
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