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[Nika Aldrich]

OK, did I get this straight?

His converters are calibrated so that 0VU = -8dBFS on the A/D converters and equals -15dBFS on the D/A converters?

Please confirm.

[Level]

Nika, it is a METER calibration..I can make it anything by adjusting the buffer amps. When my RMS is hitting -15 the readout on the buffer amplifiers SAYS 0VU...this does not mean it IS 0VU. I calibrated it this way to give me a quick indication when I am hitting where I want to hit..and then I still have 8dB (peak) more headroom before the digital 2 track recorder comes unglued. This is extra "insurance" so I do not have to look over my shoulder at the 2 track..I KNOW it is safe.

Self calibration for ME nika.

I take care of the ACTUAL TRUE level in mastering.

[Brent Handy]

Nika Aldrich wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 18:24

OK, did I get this straight? His converters are calibrated so that 0VU = -8dBFS on the A/D converters and equals -15dBFS on the D/A converters? Please confirm.

That's what he said.  That's kinda' funky to me.  Seems to me that it should be -8 coming in and -8 going out.  Surely there is a DAW return's gain stage on the console.  Actually, Gezz, I don't think that I could get my HD system to do -8.

Sorry Bill, must not have been you.  Somebody DID say that.  I will read again.

[Level]

Minus 8 peak Brent?

[Nika Aldrich]

Level wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 18:39

Minus 8 peak Brent?

What?

Didn't you say that -8dBFS in your digital system (at A/D) is calibrated to 0VU?  What does "peak" have to do with it?  dBFS is a reference level - not a type of test signal.

Also, perhaps the gang can help me out: this means that if he takes his output out of his DAW and feeds it back into his input he gains 7dB in level, yea?  Or is he running two different 0VU measurements in the studio?

Help?

Nika.

[Brent Handy]

In calibration mode with a 1k tone in PT HD, you have -12 to -18 (I think) dBFS adjustability via the pots on the 192s.  Nika can correct me if I am wrong.  O for me is +4, with the convertors calibrated to -14 most of the time on setting A, -16 on B.  I find that for rock music -16 works great.  This isn't to say that -16 is where the peaks will be.  This calibration just "centers" the source in the dynamic range of the convertor.

   

[Nika Aldrich]

Level wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 18:32

Nika, it is a METER calibration..I can make it anything by adjusting the buffer amps. When my RMS is hitting -15 the readout on the buffer amplifiers SAYS 0VU...this does not mean it IS 0VU. I calibrated it this way to give me a quick indication when I am hitting where I want to hit..and then I still have 8dB (peak) more headroom before the digital 2 track recorder comes unglued. This is extra "insurance" so I do not have to look over my shoulder at the 2 track..I KNOW it is safe. Self calibration for ME nika. I take care of the ACTUAL TRUE level in mastering.

OK, so what is 0VU calibrated to then?  Apparently we are even further from knowing how you've calibrated because you don't have your VU meters aligned to 0VU.  So please help us again with the original question:

0VU is calibrated to what level (in dBFS) on your converters?

Nika.

[Nika Aldrich]

Brent wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 18:49

In calibration mode with a 1k tone in PT HD, you have -12 to -18 (I think) dBFS adjustability via the pots on the 192s.  Nika can correct me if I am wrong.  O for me is +4, with the convertors calibrated to -14 most of the time on setting A, -16 on B.  I find that for rock music -16 works great.  This isn't to say that -16 is where the peaks will be.  This calibration just "centers" the source in the dynamic range of the convertor.

Right.  That -12 to -18dBFS sounds right to me.  I remember my Apogee AD8000 allowed up to -20dBFS if I recall correctly?  The more dynamic the material the lower we generally crank that number (down to -20dBFS for classical symphony orchestras, for example).  Then that value is equal to 0VU, is equal to +4dBu, is equal to nominal operating level on outboard equipment and within the digital system.  

Nika.

[Level]

I have my system bussed as separate entities.

Recording to multitrack (tracking)

A +5 peak on the analog console at the channel strip will give me a -3dB peak on the digital multitrack channel.

Playback of multitrack through 2 buss buffer amp to A/D to 2 track digital recorder.

A METER READING of 0VU on the buffer amplifier will give me a peak reading no higher than -8 peak on the 2 track digital recorder.

An output reading of -15RMS (on the analog copnsole) will give a 0VU reading on the buffer amplifier. this reading will not allow for peaks to exceed -8db peak on the 2mix recorder.

This should clarify everything.

Reasons for this scheme:

Recording

1. At no time do I allow my channel strip to peak above zero. This insures room for the digital multitrack recorder. It has on live recordings of full scale symphonic.  On a a very few live performances have the meters on the channel strip run high enough to excite an absolute peak on the digital recorder of -1.5dB. My console has headroom and I am not hitting the brick wall.

Mixdown

2. My 2mix digital recorder is in a rack behind me. To insure that it will never see a peak value higher than I desire, I calibrated the VU meters on my analog buffer amplifiers so that when they read zero VU, this will not peak higher than -8db on the multitrack recorder. The analog desk metering (as well as the metering in the DAW should I mix with it) at this point is running an RMS of -15dB on the 2buss.

The buffer amplifiers allow for me to set the calibration of the meters themselves, anywhere I choose that I am comfortable with. A reading of zero VU means I am hitting the 2mix digital recorder with plenty of gain and I have plenty of headroom. I have to wall the meters there to get a -2 peak to the 2mix digital recorder.

Mastering defines the absolute level of the 2mix.

Bill, why didn't you say this before? Well, I have a tendency to include more information that is needed to get my point across. I am sorry if I offended anyone..in retrospect, respect for each other should dominate this forum.

[Brent Handy]

Level wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 19:06

A +5 peak on the analog console at the channel strip will give me a -3dB peak on the digital multitrack channel.

Ok, but Bill, what is that convertor calibrated to?  Are you still working with Sonic Foundry/Vegas?  What cards are you using?  Do they not have calibration pots on them?  What are they set to?

[Level]

The digital multitrack has its owns converters and meters, the channel amplifiers all have output and input gain controls and metering. The meters themself are adjustable. When the first red LED comes on, (zero on the line amp) I know the multitrack is at -8peak. I do not have to turn around and stare at it. O also can adjust the input sensitivity of the input on the actual multitrack if I need to..but it is already calibrated (to my standards) to give me the readings I enjoy.

Is it too much that I have come up with my own metering calibration that works for me with no guesswork? I do not have overs, I am not driving my line amps to distortion and compression and it sounds damn fine. Is this not all that really matters is that I have a useable system and it sounds great?

Sound forge is used for audio editing functions. It does well for that.

If anyone is truly interested in this system, how it sounds and would like to hear it in person, this can be arranged. We all have our own way of doing what it takes to make our clients pleased. Frankly, I could care less if the meters said 500 on them..as long as I am not introduing anomilies audibly different from the source and my clients are happy, I am cool.

This is getting damned petty.

Don't overdrive your converters or equipment and make your clients happy.

I am going sailing for the remainder of the afternoon. Wish you were here.

[Brent Handy]

Level wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 19:23

The digital multitrack has its owns converters and meters, the channel amplifiers all have output and input gain controls and metering. The meters themself are adjustable. When the first red LED comes on, (zero on the line amp) I know the multitrack is at -8peak. I do not have to turn around and stare at it. O also can adjust the input sensitivity of the input on the actual multitrack if I need to..but it is already calibrated (to my standards) to give me the readings I enjoy. Is it too much that I have come up with my own metering calibration that works for me with no guesswork? I do not have overs, I am not driving my line amps to distortion and compression and it sounds damn fine. Is this not all that really matters is that I have a useable system and it sounds great? Sound forge is used for audio editing functions. It does well for that. If anyone is truly interested in this system, how it sounds and would like to hear it in person, this can be arranged. We all have our own way of doing what it takes to make our clients pleased. Frankly, I could care less if the meters said 500 on them..as long as I am not introduing anomilies audibly different from the source and my clients are happy, I am cool. This is getting damned petty. Don't overdrive your converters or equipment and make your clients happy. I am going sailing for the remainder of the afternoon. Wish you were here.

Don't you calibrate your convertors/recorders for projects that people bring in?  Don't people take projects out?  How do you deal with that?  Just curious.  Everybody that I have ever dealt with producer/engineer wise has a preference, and it must be dealt with if not for overdubbing, for monitoring.

[Johnny B]

Sounds a little like the young rapid minds are having some difficulty understanding the communication style of a wise old veteran, but if we avoid the name-calling, show a little respect, tolerance, and patience with one another, and we all calm down, maybe we can all learn something from each other. YMMV.

[Nika Aldrich]

Johnny B wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 20:13

Sounds a little like the young rapid minds are having some difficulty understanding the communication style of a wise old veteran, but if we avoid the name-calling, show a little respect, tolerance, and patience with one another, and we all calm down, maybe we can all learn something from each other. YMMV.

Who in here do you actually know, and which one, I am curious, are you referring to as the "wise old veteran?"  Are you sure you know about whom all you are referring?

Nika.

[Brent Handy]

Nika Aldrich wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 20:18

Johnny B wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 20:13 Sounds a little like the young rapid minds are having some difficulty understanding the communication style of a wise old veteran, but if we avoid the name-calling, show a little respect, tolerance, and patience with one another, and we all calm down, maybe we can all learn something from each other. YMMV. Who in here do you actually know, and which one, I am curious, are you referring to as the "wise old veteran?"  Are you sure you know about whom all you are referring? Nika.

I read no name calling.  Who called names?  Who is insulting?  Erik had potty mouth for a sec, but that's all.  If you are going to talk about industry standard processes/concepts (calibration), then you ought to be able to effectively state how it is implemented in your studio, otherwise it is of no use.  This is no different that speaking about SPL's, Noise and distortion specs, etc.  It needs a reference.