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Author Topic: The advantage of large mixers?  (Read 41566 times)

Curve Dominant

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #180 on: September 20, 2004, 09:15:17 PM »

Quote:

posted by electrical:
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 18:21

Quote:

I live just off 11th Street. I walk a few blocks north on 11th, make a left, walk one block, and it's RIGHT THERE. The SSL 9064, the ICON system, and all the vintage gear going back to the early 60's you could possibly drool over. Genelec monitors in Augsberger-designed rooms. EVERYTHING you are talking about, and more, IF I need it, which is about 10% of my work, if that.


So you, you don't need a big console, as long as someone else has one for when you do need it.

Someone needs a big console, just not you. Unless you need one, and then that guy has one.

I guess I'm that guy, and I need one then.

If that guy off 11th street ever starts thinking like you, that he doesn't need one, then you'll both be walking down 11th street looking for a guy like me who isn't part of the new paradigm. Who has what everybody wants but doesn't have because they're all part of the new paradigm and don't need one until they need it and then I've got one.

My head hurts.



Hold on, Albini, it gets worse.

I don't own a CAR, either. But I know a guy who does, and when I need a ride somewhere, I call him and he comes around and picks me up and drives me to where I need to go.

I don't own a WALK-IN REFRIGERATOR, either. But...you guessed it! There's this guy I know, and he owns something called a market...

And I could go ON AND ON AND ON.

NOW, I hope your sitting down, because get this: LOTS of people live this way.

Now, folks in the audio trade can live this way too. Amazing! It's ONLY 2004, and this early into human development, the AUDIO industry has got this WILD WACKY NEW THING! We are, like, dude, SO caught up with the rest of civilization now.

Well...

SOME of us are, anyway.

MB

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #181 on: September 21, 2004, 01:54:57 AM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 03:15

Quote:

posted by electrical:
Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 18:21

Quote:

I live just off 11th Street. I walk a few blocks north on 11th, make a left, walk one block, and it's RIGHT THERE. The SSL 9064, the ICON system, and all the vintage gear going back to the early 60's you could possibly drool over. Genelec monitors in Augsberger-designed rooms. EVERYTHING you are talking about, and more, IF I need it, which is about 10% of my work, if that.


So you, you don't need a big console, as long as someone else has one for when you do need it.

Someone needs a big console, just not you. Unless you need one, and then that guy has one.

I guess I'm that guy, and I need one then.

If that guy off 11th street ever starts thinking like you, that he doesn't need one, then you'll both be walking down 11th street looking for a guy like me who isn't part of the new paradigm. Who has what everybody wants but doesn't have because they're all part of the new paradigm and don't need one until they need it and then I've got one.

My head hurts.



Hold on, Albini, it gets worse.

I don't own a CAR, either. But I know a guy who does, and when I need a ride somewhere, I call him and he comes around and picks me up and drives me to where I need to go.

I don't own a WALK-IN REFRIGERATOR, either. But...you guessed it! There's this guy I know, and he owns something called a market...

And I could go ON AND ON AND ON.

NOW, I hope your sitting down, because get this: LOTS of people live this way.

Now, folks in the audio trade can live this way too. Amazing! It's ONLY 2004, and this early into human development, the AUDIO industry has got this WILD WACKY NEW THING! We are, like, dude, SO caught up with the rest of civilization now.

Well...

SOME of us are, anyway.



Obviously there's considerable irony in someone who's only released vanity projects lecturing Steve Albini on anything and in economics doubly so seeing how you didn't even know what a pecuniary gain was and yet I've seen Steve talk of Laffer curves.

Anyhoo, I think you've missed Steve's point. It's an entirely economic one. As you kids chase false idols or paradigms or whatever, he's sitting there with a scarce skillset and scarce resources that you guys are making scarcer. Capitalistic Steve loves it. Record loving Steve prolly has other thoughts...

Anecdotally and totally analogously, there's a fascinating phenomena in London right now where plumbers are making as much money as bankers. Seeing how the government and all other institutions have pushed people into getting an university education the last ten years, people forgot about who's gonna actually build the nuts and bolts of all these new paradigms.  
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Curve Dominant

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #182 on: September 21, 2004, 01:58:13 AM »

Bryan,

That was a nice post. REALLY. Not being facetious. But it didn't really address what I've been hinting at.

Quote:

A sub-project recording studio is like that Harmony. You can do some cool stuff, but . . .


I'm just not digging that analogy. It doesn't work for me.

Bear with me here, Bryan:

1) A sub-project studio (like the one in my crib) is like a small camera. It is perfectly capable of "filming" a performance of an individual vocalist, guitarist,  bassist, keyboardist, percussionist, etc., and faithfully capturing that performance.

2) A large commercial recording facility like the one a few blocks up 11th Street which I mentioned earlier, has a bigger, more elaborate camera. This camera is better suited to "filming" a live trap drumkit, live band, orchestra, string quartet, etc.

3) Then, Bobro has his mobile rig, which he can take out into the field, and record stuff that one can only capture in the field. I did this when I took a small standalone DAW out to my nephew's shack in his mom's backyard to record his drumming (very unique sound we got, not for every application, but I like uniqueness). That's the field camera.

4) My little brother Kurt is in Tokyo, and he's got this little tiny "camera" in his hotel room, that he uses to "film" a killer guitar solo, set to what all the other cameras have already recorded. And he can DO that, because I emailed him a rough mix to play to.

So, I get all that "film" together in my crib, and start to edit it into a "movie." I create something akin to what the artist's vision is. But if I get to a certain point where I feel limited, I email the entire session to Big Studio, and we pick up from there.

Hopefully, Bryan, you're following me here. I am not counting ANYBODY out of the process here; on the contrary: I want to INCLUDE everybody in the process. THAT's the "new paradigm," as I see it. Inclusiveness. We ALL have a role, and we work TOGETHER.

chrisj

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #183 on: September 21, 2004, 03:52:50 AM »

If there's a 'new paradigm' it's people collaborating over the internet, which they could do just as well mailing tapes, but they can also do it through transferring files. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the audio content being special, or even acceptable.
Even then it's not very new. I was (briefly) collaborating on MIDI files over the Internet back in 1996 or so, with the 'Res Rocket Surfer' project, using a 33 mhz Mac Performa 575 that couldn't even record proper audio. This isn't new but it's still kinda neat. It's only going to prove useful to people who have more than the simple ability to transfer files.
In a paradigm that includes the whole world, you're wasting your time learning how to run Pro Tools better. Have someone do it for you, and practice your chosen instrument.

Loco

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #184 on: September 21, 2004, 04:25:16 AM »

I guess we are all reading in between the wrong lines....

Eric Vincent wrote on Mon, 20 September 2004 18:21

Quote:

The good thing about a mixer is that you have all the processing right there: preamps, compressor, EQ, converters, some routing, monitoring, etc.


Are you talking about an SSL? No thanks, I'd rather use a 001.


I don't see a bunch of preamps on a double-oh-whine... However, it may come to the point where you don't even need the little card and your laptop will beam the audio to your brain. That, or it will burn it into your legs.

Quote:

I live just off 11th Street. I walk a few blocks north on 11th, make a left, walk one block, and it's RIGHT THERE. The SSL 9064, the ICON system, and all the vintage gear going back to the early 60's you could possibly drool over. Genelec monitors in Augsberger-designed rooms. EVERYTHING you are talking about, and more, IF I need it, which is about 10% of my work, if that.


But there's still a 10% chance that you may need that Assburger room. Just don't send the mixers to Freshkills yet...

Quote:

There's always a solution, Carlos. If you ever find yourself "stuck" with a 001, just remember you can email your tracks or mixes or sessions out to a bigger studio. Capisce? New Paradigm, baby.

And Remember, folks: It was Albini who introduced that term into this discussion, NOT The Curve.


First thing on a studio, no babies. Leave that term aside for the groupies, kid.

Second, my two studio environments right now that work for me are a big room with a digital board blasting some Assburgers, and my laptop at the beach with HD590s on my ears. In both cases, the common thing is a good bottle of beer at hand.

Cheers!
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Carlos "El Loco" Bedoya

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Bif Vincent

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #185 on: September 21, 2004, 04:52:42 AM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 01:58

Bryan,

That was a nice post. REALLY. Not being facetious. But it didn't really address what I've been hinting at.

Quote:

A sub-project recording studio is like that Harmony. You can do some cool stuff, but . . .


I'm just not digging that analogy. It doesn't work for me.

Bear with me here, Bryan:

1) A sub-project studio (like the one in my crib) is like a small camera. It is perfectly capable of "filming" a performance of an individual vocalist, guitarist,  bassist, keyboardist, percussionist, etc., and faithfully capturing that performance.

2) A large commercial recording facility like the one a few blocks up 11th Street which I mentioned earlier, has a bigger, more elaborate camera. This camera is better suited to "filming" a live trap drumkit, live band, orchestra, string quartet, etc.

3) Then, Bobro has his mobile rig, which he can take out into the field, and record stuff that one can only capture in the field. I did this when I took a small standalone DAW out to my nephew's shack in his mom's backyard to record his drumming (very unique sound we got, not for every application, but I like uniqueness). That's the field camera.

4) My little brother Kurt is in Tokyo, and he's got this little tiny "camera" in his hotel room, that he uses to "film" a killer guitar solo, set to what all the other cameras have already recorded. And he can DO that, because I emailed him a rough mix to play to.

So, I get all that "film" together in my crib, and start to edit it into a "movie." I create something akin to what the artist's vision is. But if I get to a certain point where I feel limited, I email the entire session to Big Studio, and we pick up from there.

Hopefully, Bryan, you're following me here. I am not counting ANYBODY out of the process here; on the contrary: I want to INCLUDE everybody in the process. THAT's the "new paradigm," as I see it. Inclusiveness. We ALL have a role, and we work TOGETHER.


Eric

Would you mind terribly if I came over to your apartment? I'd like to model that signature sound.

Bif
I'm a popstar!
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Glenn Bucci

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #186 on: September 21, 2004, 08:46:39 AM »

Wow, I did not think my thread would have so many hits. Shocked

I think we can conclude that if you have a big project, there is nothing like working with a big mixer. George has said in the past, having recall on digital mixers for eq, and effects is a big benifit.

With that being said, many people just need 24 or 32 tracks to do a lot of projects. If that is where you are, the Yamaha DM 2000, Sony, Pro Controller, Control 24 or even the SSL 900 is all you really need. Of course you will want your own converters, and outboard gear to go into these units into a DAW, Radar or whatever you use.

My point was and still is, though it is great to have Neve, or SSL large console, if your track count is low, not only is it not needed, but you can get results that sound just as good on the other lower end units. Not only do we have decent lower end mixers, but we also have tons of plug ins, and they are getting pretty acceptable these days. Though there will always be some great hardware gear in the pro studio.
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Eric Sarafin

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #187 on: September 21, 2004, 01:29:14 PM »

Keef wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 13:46

 George has said in the past, having recall on digital mixers for eq, and effects is a big benifit.


Not everyone views this as a benefit. Benefit also means advantage.

Having instant recall can be just as much a disadvantage as an advantage. If you have recall abilities, the client will undoubtedly want to use them. If your recall abilities are at the very least time consuming, it forces everyone involved to focus make decisions and go with those decisions.

Advantages and disadvantages are wholly personal. There is no such thing as a self-evident and inalienable advantage or benefit.

Many people don't understand that we choose our clients based on what we view as advantages and disadvantages. I know you're reaction before you've had it. "I don't choose my clients! People call me out of the blue."

Wrong.

You choose your clients. Your working methods, your bedside manner, your choice in gear, your pricing, etc.. will attract the right clients for you. A band that requires heavy editing is going to seek out a producer that prefers digital methods, and believes in heavy editing. I have precluded myself from this sort of work just by HOW I work. We all preclude ourselves from different clients by how we choose to work.

I have a certain comfort zone with having clients present and forcing them to make decisions. I do not have a comfort zone with allowing them to second guess themselves to the destruction of every amount of goodness there is in a mix. So I choose tools and methods that allow for my preferences. Given these preferences, the advantage of instant recall would be a very great disadvantage to me.

There are some mixers that are all too happy to recall a song as many times as they have to. Some mixers prefer the client to be as far away as possible. A mixer who likes to work in this manner will choose the tools and the situation to allow for this. Total and instant recall would be a must, and thus would be an advantage to this style of working.

Too often, positions are argued on audio internet boards based on a limited scope of reality. We tend to forget, it's a large world out there, and there are many ways of working. There are many of us that dislike how newer digital technologies are affecting music in general, let alone how it affects us personally.

Yes, I know. It's not the digital technologies that are responsible for abuse. It's the people who use them. It's the people that abuse editing and chromatic tuning; It's the people that choose to record 126 tracks and not make a decision. And I would point out that those people attract clients that appreciate these working methods. But let's also acknowledge that the effects of the "advantages" of digital working methods have had a seemingly negative effect on our pool of musicians. In my eyes, this has not been a benefit, but rather, a detriment, and on a very large scale.

It's great that we can now take an average singer and help them to compete in some ways with a fantastic one. I certainly understand why some people might view this as a personal advantage. And it's great that the price to get into the business of recording has fallen so dramatically in the past 25 years--yet another advantage, for some. But do you realize how many more average singers and average recordings we must endure because of these advantages?

Let's not even get INTO the advantages and disadvantages of easy file exchange!

My intention is not for this to become an argument, or even a discussion on the state of the music industry and the role of digital technologies in the whole debacle. I'm just trying to make the case that one man's advantage is another man's disadvantage. One man's benefit is another man's detriment. And we should be careful about proclaiming any given benefit or advantage as globally and uniformly true.

Eric Sarafin
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electrical

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #188 on: September 21, 2004, 04:55:08 PM »

Keef wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 08:46


My point was and still is, though it is great to have Neve, or SSL large console, if your track count is low, not only is it not needed, but you can get results that sound just as good on the other lower end units. Not only do we have decent lower end mixers, but we also have tons of plug ins, and they are getting pretty acceptable these days.


This paragraph (with a few trade nouns other than Neve changed) was first written in 1970, or whenever the TEAC 3340 4-track came out, and has been re-written every few weeks by someone new to the concept ever since. It has yet to be proven true.

I recorded many demos on a TEAC 3340 4-track in the late 1970s and early 1980s. It wasn't until I took the same machine into a real studio that I ever got my money's worth out of it. The things I kept telling myself didn't matter, like the console, the monitors, the experience of the guy helping me, the exact right piece of equipment to solve a problem, clean power, good grounding, the listening environment and the care taken to assemble all that -- turns out they do matter.

Given minimal equipment, I can make a record in a house, barn,  coal mine or places even worse -- say in a gondola on an open sewer or the Slaughterhouse in Western Mass. But I would never presume that all records are best made in those places, or that I could make records of the same caliber in one of those places that I can make in a proper studio.

The location becomes part of the record (including the apologies and excuses made for it), like it or not, and if the location is limited, those limitations will reflect in the final result.
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Extreme Mixing

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #189 on: September 21, 2004, 07:51:51 PM »

Well put Eric.  A great sax player and a good friend once told me to be careful what you get good at, because you'll wind up doing a lot of it.  We do all pick our own poison, and there are advantages and disadvantages to each.

Steve Shepherd

Wyn Davis

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #190 on: September 22, 2004, 12:12:11 AM »

Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 10:29

 But let's also acknowledge that the effects of the "advantages" of digital working methods have had a seemingly negative effect on our pool of musicians. In my eyes, this has not been a benefit, but rather, a detriment, and on a very large scale.



Eric,

You are SO right. In fact, I have a friend (engineer) who insists that he has not done an album in two years where any of the kids playing were more than mediocre at best, and this sorta proves your point. Having a smaller pool of good young musicians is not really a disadvantage to everyone. The couple of young musicians out there who really ARE good, are busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest and almost impossible to get on short notice.
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Wyn Davis
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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #191 on: September 22, 2004, 12:38:55 AM »

electrical wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 13:55

 The things I kept telling myself didn't matter, like the console, the monitors, the experience of the guy helping me, the exact right piece of equipment to solve a problem, clean power, good grounding, the listening environment and the care taken to assemble all that -- turns out they do matter.



Steve,

Absolutely. Problem is try making that case to someone who has not spent much time working in a "proper studio". These folks do not understand how much difference the sweat of talented people trying to squeeze the last few percentages of improvement out of a facility or installation makes. We are living in a temporary cosmic fart bubble where the triumph of the amateur is papering the landscape with billboards that say "Its Good Enough". As long as its good enough, it never really has to be any better does it?

(insert favorite profanity here) yes it does! And as long as there are still a few people (like you) out there insisting that it matters, there is still hope things might turn out okay.

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Wyn Davis
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George Massenburg

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #192 on: September 22, 2004, 09:39:13 AM »

Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 12:29


[...]
And we should be careful about proclaiming any given benefit or advantage as globally and uniformly true.

Eric Sarafin



Or, equally important, false.

George
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #193 on: September 22, 2004, 11:35:31 AM »

Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 12:29

  There are many of us that dislike how newer digital technologies are affecting music in general, let alone how it affects us personally. ...do you realize how many more average singers and average recordings we must endure because of these advantages?


I was one of a tiny group of people who urged Stevie Wonder to perform all of his own parts on his productions. While it was the obvious best possible move for Stevie, his success working that way created a disaster for music in general. People not having his years of experience working with ensembles or his encyclopedic knowledge of American music and musicians don't stand a chance of approaching what Stevie can do.

The ability to punch in a part also seriously impaired the quality of recorded music. The energy of an entire ensemble and an engineer HAVING to get it right within a limited amount of very expensive time comes right across in the final product.

Most great recordings EXCEED people's concepts of how the music ought to be. The moment you can control everything is the moment that the magic gos away. Talent might well be defined as the ability to respond and the quality of one's response to the unexpected. When nothing is unexpected, the music gets really boring. This is precisely why Spielberg still insists on actually cutting film when he edits.

Peter Simonsen

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Re: The advantage of large mixers?
« Reply #194 on: September 22, 2004, 04:51:36 PM »

Quote:

 title=Eric Sarafin wrote on Tue, 21 September 2004 18:29
You choose your clients. Your working methods, your bedside manner, your choice in gear, your pricing, etc.. will attract the right clients for you. A band that requires heavy editing is going to seek out a producer that prefers digital methods, and believes in heavy editing. I have precluded myself from this sort of work just by HOW I work. We all preclude ourselves from different clients by how we choose to work.Eric Sarafin



Now this is about some of the very best understanding I have seen in a very long time. Ill second that.

Kind regards

Peter
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