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Author Topic: SOFFIT ATC 110  (Read 4825 times)

vladi

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SOFFIT ATC 110
« on: October 19, 2009, 11:01:07 am »

HI i am about to soffit a pair of ATC 110 speakers,
the speakers needs to be angled 8 degrees , now  is it OK to just tilt the speakers 8 degrees in a straight wall or should I tilt the wall to.

in other words how important is it to  exactly flush with the front wall.

TNX. VLADI
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vladi

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 02:52:38 pm »

how about turning the speakers upside down, the i wont need to tilt them.

just adjust for the  right height
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 02:54:09 pm »

Here we go to great lenght to flush mount them perfect within the wall and to make the housing/wall as air tight as it can be. So yes, to do it well you need to modify your front wall...

You want an "infinite baffle" type of mounting. Make it nice and neat. Some like them coupled to the front wall, we like them fully decoupled. Different techniques/compromsies that avoid different sets of problems. None of them is perfect. Pick yours Smile

8
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
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Pro Audio Partners:
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 02:54:56 pm »

vladi wrote on Mon, 19 October 2009 13:52

how about turning the speakers upside down, the i wont need to tilt them.

just adjust for the  right height


Avoid that... Again, if possible.
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

Pro Audio Partners:
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vladi

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 03:02:15 pm »

TNX for your reply Thomas,

my Console Bridge ends at 105 cm height, now  can the bass speakers be below that height or must i be able to se them for the best results.

Vladi
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 05:04:46 pm »

Avoid any obstacles. Give them as much free space as possible.
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
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KB_S1

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 05:37:01 pm »

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Mon, 19 October 2009 22:04

Avoid any obstacles. Give them as much free space as possible.


Thomas, for large speakers is there a minimum distance you would try and set between the speaker and the listening position.

Something like Dynaudio M3s for example?
This is slightly following from comments made by a loudspeaker company representative at a seminar recently.
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 02:45:12 am »

KB_S1 wrote on Mon, 19 October 2009 16:37

Thomas, for large speakers is there a minimum distance you would try and set between the speaker and the listening position.

Something like Dynaudio M3s for example?
This is slightly following from comments made by a loudspeaker company representative at a seminar recently.



I would try and have at least 2.1 to 2.4 meters (~7ft to ~8ft) with these.

But the room size and front wall configuration itself will also be a big part of the equation when determining the minimum distance.
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

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vladi

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 02:43:33 pm »

Thomas could you explain the reasons for not having the speakers up side down.

And is thre any studio that have big speakers that only tilt 5 degrees and have a big console and don´t have any obstacles in the way.

i´m now down to 7 degrees I dont have that extra 90cm for the 5 degrees(see pic)

Vladiindex.php/fa/13619/0/
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 05:00:40 pm »

Real busy here today and tomorrow, will do my best to answer in a couple days max - with a little drawing too  Smile

There are a couple things in your drawing that need to be corrected too. The devil is in the detail, as usual in this field...



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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

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franman

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2009, 08:43:16 am »

I am also curious about your opinion why the speakers cannot be upside down. The only possible complications I see is the study of SBIR with the woofer/floor/ceiling. We often turn speakers with the woofers up, if this works as a better solution and also keeps the woofer/port further away from the vertical center axis in the room.

As Thomas says, there are 'many' things to consider and 'many' different approaches to flush in-wall speaker mounting. We also choose to decouple the speaker, but we do not seek an air-tight opening in the wall.  Also, we have mounted (with great success) up to a max of 10 degrees of tilt. It's all about avoiding first reflections and interference (with regards to positioning). Of course, it is a very complex set of details and we spend A LOT of time coming up with the unique solution for each project. There is no doubt (to me) that lower angle and lower speaker height is better, as this will tend to control reflections off the console surface.

Looking forward to Thomas' reply on the woofer/upside down issue!!

FM
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2009, 01:41:00 pm »

Not upside down, it's indeed because of SBIR! In many cases the calculations show it can really affect the sound, unless (IMO) you 1- have a high enough ceiling 2- with enough/proper slope in it and 3-enough treatment, and the right treatment. Which isn't a given in most places.

Then again, "avoid if possible" isn't "avoid at all costs". There is one or two studios where I actually did put them upside down because the pros wheigthed more than the cons and more important the rooms allowed it.

It's all different shades of grey, and the conditions always differ from one project to the other.

Hence there are only few rules in design, but a lot of guidelines. My guideline is to try to keep them in their "normal position".

Will answer the other question asap!
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

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FOCAL Professional Speakers

Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 08:31:57 am »

vladi wrote on Tue, 20 October 2009 13:43

Thomas could you explain the reasons for not having the speakers up side down.

And is thre any studio that have big speakers that only tilt 5 degrees and have a big console and don´t have any obstacles in the way.

i´m now down to 7 degrees I dont have that extra 90cm for the 5 degrees(see pic)

Vladi


Vladi,

I started to type something and I actually bumped into an old paper that, while not directly related to the subject, is very close and has a whole part about the Pinna /  HRTF effect.

It is very clear and will show what my point is about the 5
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

Pro Audio Partners:
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 08:57:19 am »

So, to make sure it is clear, my point is that in terms of placement (height/angle) you should stay in the area circled on the graph.

http://www.dhorg.net/~astudio/PSW CUE3.jpg
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

Pro Audio Partners:
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Greg Reierson

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Re: SOFFIT ATC 110
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 10:13:46 am »

Thomas,

Two things. First, it's easy to demonstrate this affect by simply tilting you're head down. HF goes up, for me at least.

Second, I use PMC MB1 XBD floor standing monitors. For proper time alignment (which is easy to verify with pink noise and a bit of head bobbing), PMC specifies that the mid driver be at a 10 degree angle up from the listeners ears. At first I found this a bit strange as the image is slightly elevated, but now I find it completely normal. Imaging is outstanding.

What are your thoughts on their approach? Have you every used either the MB1/2 or BB5 in an installation?

Thanks,


GR
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