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Author Topic: 5.1 Audio reference  (Read 3293 times)

soundroid

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5.1 Audio reference
« on: October 13, 2009, 12:04:30 AM »

Hi Guys and Gals,

I wanted to raise the question of supplying reference discs to clients in 5.1.
Essentially, I don't deal with pictures. I'm only mastering the audio, that then gets
married with pictures at the authoring suite. my clients sit in on the session
and approve the mastering as normal, however I'd love to burn an audio disc of this
data so as they can go home with a reference copy. I've made DVD-Audio copies in the
past, thinking that was the ultimate solution, however, 99% of my clients' dvd players simply don't cater for DVD-A.
So my question is;
'what kind of audio reference discs are MEs giving to their clients for surround projects?'

TotalSonic

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 01:25:42 AM »

I've never worked in surround and haven't had a past or potential client ever inquire as to whether I could.  One possible solution to your problem though would be to create a "hybrid" disc that features both a DVD-Video and DVD-Audio partition so that it would play in either type of player.  Cirlinca's HD Audio Solo is a really inexpensive PC program that can author these types of discs (or optionally give you just audio on DVD-V, or a standard DVD-Audio disc) -  http://www.cirlinca.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson  

soundroid

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 01:59:38 AM »

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 13 October 2009 00:25

I've never worked in surround and haven't had a past or potential client ever inquire as to whether I could.  One possible solution to your problem though would be to create a "hybrid" disc that features both a DVD-Video and DVD-Audio partition so that it would play in either type of player.  Cirlinca's HD Audio Solo is a really inexpensive PC program that can author these types of discs (or optionally give you just audio on DVD-V, or a standard DVD-Audio disc) -  http://www.cirlinca.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson  


thanks Steve,

I was trying to avoid the DVD-A format as most clients had trouble playing this
type of disc in the past.

TotalSonic

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 02:26:09 AM »

soundroid wrote on Tue, 13 October 2009 01:59

TotalSonic wrote on Tue, 13 October 2009 00:25

I've never worked in surround and haven't had a past or potential client ever inquire as to whether I could.  One possible solution to your problem though would be to create a "hybrid" disc that features both a DVD-Video and DVD-Audio partition so that it would play in either type of player.  Cirlinca's HD Audio Solo is a really inexpensive PC program that can author these types of discs (or optionally give you just audio on DVD-V, or a standard DVD-Audio disc) -  http://www.cirlinca.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson  


thanks Steve,

I was trying to avoid the DVD-A format as most clients had trouble playing this
type of disc in the past.



Exactly!  Cirlinca HD Audio Solo can burn 5.1 audio onto discs which are compatible with standard DVD-Video players.  Which is why I suggested it.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bkuijt

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 03:56:19 AM »

Thanks Steve, that looks really useful!

The other solution I know of is relatively expensive:  Encode to DTS with the DTS or Minnetonka encoder and create a DVD with Finalcut Pro (creating a template with the studio logo etc).
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soundroid

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 05:57:26 PM »

will definitely check this out Steve.
Cheers

Joe

zenmastering

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 04:58:21 PM »

The DTS encoder (Minnetonka) is $100 and you use a decent CD mastering app (i.e. no hidden processing) to burn a 5.1 'DTS-CD'. Of course, this is lossy compression, as would be Cirlinca's 'hybrid' output.

I haven't found too many DVD-players that won't play a DTS-disc.

Best,

Graemme

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bkuijt

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 05:18:42 PM »

Hi Graemme,
Can you tell a bit more about playback of a DTS-CD?
Is it always the DVD player that does the DTS de-coding or can it be handled by the amp?

I had difficulties with this when I tried it some time ago, never got it to work at home...
Will try again, it would be a nice solution.

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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 12:04:41 AM »

U$50 cheap DVD players might handle only dolby and simply provide L-R analog Unbalanced RCA outs.
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zenmastering

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2009, 09:07:37 PM »

Hi Bastian,

My two Pioneer DVD players decode the DTS internally and also send it via the S/PDIF output. The digital o/p would of course still be DTS-encoded. Players with HDMI outputs may be able to decode the DTS internally and then send a LPCM multi-channel signal to the connected amp/receiver. The Sony PS3 fits into the latter category.

I haven't had a problem here or had a client report anything unplayable and that's based on about 60 discs sent out over time.

Best,

Graemme


bkuijt wrote on Wed, 14 October 2009 14:18

Hi Graemme,
Can you tell a bit more about playback of a DTS-CD?
Is it always the DVD player that does the DTS de-coding or can it be handled by the amp?

I had difficulties with this when I tried it some time ago, never got it to work at home...
Will try again, it would be a nice solution.



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Vancouver, Canada
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info AT zenmastering DOT net

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bkuijt

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 08:58:59 AM »

zenmastering wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 03:07

Hi Bastian,

My two Pioneer DVD players decode the DTS internally and also send it via the S/PDIF output. The digital o/p would of course still be DTS-encoded. Players with HDMI outputs may be able to decode the DTS internally and then send a LPCM multi-channel signal to the connected amp/receiver. The Sony PS3 fits into the latter category.

I haven't had a problem here or had a client report anything unplayable and that's based on about 60 discs sent out over time.

Best,

Graemme


Thanks Graemme,
That's good to know.
Indeed my Pioneer in the studio works good but as I recall I
tried feeding the DTS encoded stream out of a regular CD player
into a surround amp. Sometimes the amp recognised DTS and
decoded properly but other times just put out the DTS noise to
the speakers...
At the time we went for making DTS DVDs with Final Cut, but that
was at Super Audio Mastering.

bests, Bastiaan
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Sonovo

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 07:22:05 AM »

I thought (perhaps erroneously) that most DVD-V players also handled DVD-A. No?

If you can't give them uncompressed PCM (DVD-A), I would have to agree with Graemme & Bastian and go with DTS on DVD-V.

I seem to remember someone telling me a while back that they used to send a DVD-A along with an Oppo universal player, at the time they were around $69 and would play anything. Graemme, would you know anything about someone doing something like that?

That would be one way to ensure the client hears the high res PCM version. Maybe Yamaha, Pioneer or one of the other consumer brands has something similar to the Oppo, now that they don't make the low priced units anymore.

Cheers,
Thor
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24-96 Mastering

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 09:10:46 AM »

Slightly OT:

Remember how a few years back, when SACD authoring became available, we were discussing the SACD ref problem and resulting implications?

To recap: With SACD, there is absolutely no way of making a direct reference disc. If there's no way for a client to sign off an actual ref, who is liable if there's a problem with the replicated disc content?

I recently had just that. A insanely unlikely but significant error leading to a bad pressing.

Seeing that neither the client nor the replicator were able to identify an error (well, the plant actually could have easily caught it, but we all know that plants don't do QC anymore), it seems clear that liability lies with the authoring party. However, business liability insurance won't cover it, because technically, you didn't damage the pressed discs' content, you only 'damaged' the content of the master, which is the product that you are actually manufacturing / selling. You have no legal relation to the replication order, which is between the client and the pressing plant only. So.... who pays for a re-pressing?

In our case, it was only 2000 discs, so the damage was manageable (of course we paid for the re-pressing). But what if it had been 20,000 discs? And what if the resulting delay in manufacturing had caused further logistical costs (or losses) down the line? How can you cover yourself against these risks?

Does anyone have an answer to this? Has anyone had a similar problem?


PS: I guess this relates to this topic a bit too, anytime you give your client a ref that is not in the format of the actual product to be, you're taking on additional liability. The format differences between DVD-A vs. AC3 on DVD-V vs. DTS-CD could be enough to cause a problem here (think of LFE, surround levels, encoding differences, etc).
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bblackwood

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »

24-96 Mastering wrote on Sun, 18 October 2009 08:10

Does anyone have an answer to this? Has anyone had a similar problem?

Is it possible to load the production master back into the DAW to compare it to the source? That's about the only way I can think of to properly QC something like this, but without knowing the details of what may have happened error-wise, it's hard to know if even that would have caught it.
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24-96 Mastering

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 10:15:52 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 18 October 2009 16:00


Is it possible to load the production master back into the DAW to compare it to the source? That's about the only way I can think of to properly QC something like this, but without knowing the details of what may have happened error-wise, it's hard to know if even that would have caught it.


Yes, that's indeed possible and it is the only way to QC an SACD CM. But that still doesn't make a ref that the remote client can check.
The trouble with QC is that it's entirely possible to thoroughly check and OK the wrong content ;)
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bblackwood

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 12:00:24 PM »

24-96 Mastering wrote on Sun, 18 October 2009 09:15

The trouble with QC is that it's entirely possible to thoroughly check and OK the wrong content Wink

Touch
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bkuijt

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 05:15:16 PM »

Hi Robin,
The only way to send an sacd ref to a customer is having a test pressing made at the factory.
Otherwise it will have to be some other format.

Thor, Dvd-v can hold pcm but it needs video  to go along. Dvd-a doesn't have that requirement in it's audio part. However I believe every dvd-a needs a dvd-v section with dolby to comply to the specs.
The term dvd-a is often used for discs that aren't completely to spec.

Bests
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Sonovo

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 04:09:30 PM »

Veering completely off topic for a moment,

I had a listen to Beck Sea Change in 5.1 on DVD-A today (don't ask what it cost, it was nearly impossible to find at all), mixed by Elliot Scheiner and Mastered by Bob Ludwig.

It sounded so amazing I had to put aside what I was doing and just sit and listen.

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion....

Thor


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bkuijt

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Re: 5.1 Audio reference
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 06:53:55 PM »

Yes, that is a beautiful album.
Amazing string arrangements!
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