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Author Topic: WUMP 19 - comments  (Read 6057 times)

ATOR

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WUMP 19 - comments
« on: September 11, 2009, 08:18:28 AM »

Comments on the wump 19 masters.

There are no groups this time.
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

pmx

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 11:16:57 AM »

sorry guys, couldn't make it this time. it's just too busy...

i'm willing to listen to the other's results though, if there's any interest in that?
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Paul Matthijs Lombert | The Mastering Factory

bslobodian

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 03:22:55 PM »

Wump 19 - Waltz Mastering
ESPECIALLY LIKE THE MIDRANGE OF THIS ONE. MAYBE A BIT TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE SOUNDSCAPE (COMPRESSION ?)

WUMP19-Ed_Littman
LITTLE BIT ON THE QUIET SIDE. FOR SOME REASON, THE SMALL DEAD SPOTS @ 43s814 AND CIRCA 2m45 ARE AGGRAVATED. ITS LIKE IF IT WAS TOO MUCH CLEANED. I MUST SAY THOUGH THAT, WHEN LISTENED TO AT EQUAL LOUDNESS WITH ALL THE OTHERS, THE VERSION STANDS AND HAS ITS OWN CARACTER.

WUMP19-KAyo
L/R INVERTED (MET STYLE ?). TO BRIGHT AND THIN. SOMETHING IS SCREWING UP THE SOUNDSCAPE (MS PROCESSING ? STEREO WIDENING ?)

WUMP19_MikeyC
TINY BIT STRINGY. LOST A BIT OF THE TIMPANIS AND HORNS DYNAMIC. CAN LIVE WITH IT THOUGH.

WUMP19Technologyworks
NICELY DONE. VERY SMOOTH

WUMP19_Loji_master
ALSO VERY STRONG AND SOLID. LOW LEVEL DETAILS BROUGHT BACK BUT NOT AT THE DETRIMENT OF THE STRINGS. GOOD JOB.

WUMP19-dubwise
VERY SOLID, STRONG AND DETAILED.

WUMP19-TotalSonic
I LIKE THE OVERALL SPECTRAL BALANCE OF THIS ONE. NOT AS FORWARD AS WALTZ BUT STILL LOOSING SOME DEEPNESS IN THE SOUND SCAPE.PROBABLY TOTALSONIC AND WALTZ GIVE THE CONDUCTOR'S PERSPECTIVE THE BEST (NOT THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE WUMP'S DETAILS THAT WERE GIVEN TO US BUT THE ACTUAL CONDUCTOR'S POSITION ON STAGE).

wump19_DOMC_r8b
TO LOUD. TO MUCH LIMITING: BRASS ARE PUMPING. TOO MUCH STEREO SPREAD. ONKY AND HARSH.


On a general note, I would say that all the versions are usable but KAyo and DOMC. It also would be desirable to try to tame the flutter echo on stage.

Thanks to all and ATOR for making this WUMP19 a great experience.

Bernard Slobodian
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Viitalahde

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 05:28:13 AM »

Mine is uploaded.. Sorry I didn't make it to the web before the deadline. But I finished it on tuesday!
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Jaakko Viitalähde
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domc

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 05:55:31 AM »

ive been really sick and have not had a chance to listen yet - will give it a go soon.
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Waltz Mastering

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 11:43:59 PM »

About the song  - Very Dynamic - Playing and performance sounded great.  

Recording:  A little flat / dark sounding - (like 414's usually sound) - didn't give you the sense the orch was in front of you - a little unfocused - the stereo image wasn't to exciting.

Producer concerns:  Detail in the bottom, especially with the lower theme in bass - Retain dynamics

Spent about an hour listening to submitted tracks to evaluate.  Many of these I thought were very well done and many comments are just nit picks.
         ------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------

Techology - Liked overall sound  - very good balance/spread - something I like about this one

Fuse - Seemed to lack peaks and dynamics  - seemed like the louder peaks were cut down a bit to much,  preventing the impact of the fortissimo sections - otherwise good

Mickey C - Sounded good  - nice - maybe could use a hair more definition.

Loji - True to original - nice - safe

BSlobodian - Nice spread & balance - maybe a hair on the dark side - just a hair

Dub - Nice full eq - v good

E.Littlman  - True to original  - good balance

Total - Sounded full  and forward - maybe a hair off the top

Kayo - Over all  good - maybe a little to high middy

Domc - Pushed to much - on the verge - very spread,  could have worked well but it was hard to get past the drive

Viital

dubwise

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 02:20:32 PM »

This was interesting. I didn't like any of them, my own included,
better than simply turning up the original.

To compare, I normalized the original, polarity inverted it,
and then level adjusted each submission for maximum cancellation.

Most people went for 2-3 dB of loudness gain,
except Ed Littman and KAyo, who pretty much loudness matched the original.

KAyo's file peaks over a dB short of full scale, which puzzled me.
I expect the conductor would be a little startled to find the violins sitting on the wrong side.

Waltz Mastering may have reversed the channels as well.
Something's going on there. I can't tell what. Is it just narrower?

BSlobodian seems to have reversed the polarity, and something's affecting the stereo.

Ed Littman's is just a little bright and edgy for my taste.

DOMC_r8b turned in the only radically different take on this recording.
The roughly 8dB of gain pretty much obliterated the dynamics.
The widened stereo is interesting, but sounds unnatural.

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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 12:16:29 PM »

Dubwise,

When I read your comments, I assumed this recording sounded better before mastering than after. Very clever you did do the anti-phase trick and substracted the original signal from the masterings.

Reversing channels, those who did, have been sleeping. Reversing polarity (absolute phase). Time to check your whole system if there is one unit reversing polarity without intention, or was it done on purpose? Some recordings are indeed made with reversed polarity, but you never know for sure.

Two AKG C414 in ORTF don't really make a world recording. If this recording did not sound OK, the engineer should have changed microphones and/or positioning from the very beginning.

SFN

 
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fuse

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2009, 09:50:02 PM »

Was fun to do. Liked all the versions.  Esp Waltz and Littleman.
For my version I've might used too much compression from my P38. I did like the 'gluee' effect of it though. Masking quite a lot of the harshness of the sound.

As to the recording I think we all can agree it could be a tad better but being among perfectionists it always could have been better.
I do wonder if the combination of Mics and pre-amps also played some part though. The mids are somewhat distorted.
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Wouter Veltmaat
Eindhoven

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2009, 07:36:08 PM »

Hello, I just wanted to address the recording.

It is live, in a facility that has fans running under the stage because of moisture. The mic choice was the best for the possibility of an audience member knocking the mic stands over. While I would have liked to place the mics in an ideal position, I am limited to what I can do:

1. I have 45 minutes to set everything up as that is all the access I had before the concert due to security and other factors.
2. Due to the fact these recordings are made at the request of the music director for archival purposes, and are live performance recordings, the primary activity is not the recording, rather the performance and entertainment of the audience, thus the mics are not allowed on stage. They sit on the floor where the audience sits. I have no authority to question the music director.

The piece admittedly not recording of the year, but due to the constraints I had to deal with, I am pleased with it. For those who have ever done live recordings, know exactly where I am coming from.

Take Care,
Gene
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Waltz Mastering

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2009, 07:46:33 PM »

Hi Gene,

I think I need to apologize, as I did not mean to criticize the recording or put it down in any way.

Just describing the sound of 414's as I know them to be, really.
.. and looking at it more from the stand point as to what an ME could correct.

gbacklin wrote on Sun, 20 September 2009 19:36

 the primary activity is not the recording, rather the performance and entertainment of the audience, thus the mics are not allowed on stage. They sit on the floor where the audience sits. I have no authority to question the music director.

For those who have ever done live recordings, know exactly where I am coming from.



Totally understand.

Best Regards.

dubwise

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 09:12:14 PM »

I found the recording very satisfying.
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Ed Littman

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 11:54:25 PM »

I listened at matched levels to the original mix...yes I pulled you guys down that low.

1.BSLOBODIAN.. removed some of the boxy mids but lost detail . strange pumping in loud spots that added more distortion that original

2.DOMC....Pushed it way to far. made it harsher not smoother. With that said, you still were able to keep it together under those conditions.

3.Loji.... true to the original with a bit more zing in the high end .

4.MikeyC...true to the original with clearer tone.

5.dubwise.... Darker than the original.

6.KAyo...  Cleared up the boxy tone but added a bit to much low mid

7.echnologyworks...true to the original ,a bit clearer

8.TotalSonic... smoother than original, lost a bit of detail

9.Waltz Mastering...Thicker in the mids

10.fuse... way to much pumping from compressor

11.viitalahde..true to the original with less mud


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T. Mueller

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2009, 10:31:34 AM »

My DAW computer was in the shop until Friday. Sorry guys.
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 06:26:18 AM »

Ello!

The listening was completed with levels matched. Speakers and headphones were used.

I thank the team for our customary jam-ups, ATOR for his Admin, and Brad for hosting. A very enjoyable WUMP19, this was! As always, many a lessons learnt.



Technologyworks:
Nice and big! Maybe a little too big and boom around the periphery. Nonetheless, an intention to give the lower sections character was felt. A tad overzealous. In general, quite agreeable.

TotalSonic:
Yet again, loud but quite smeared and it's sprite, lost. Stereo & audio edge, distinctions gone astray. Hearts in the right place though, enjoyed the analogue quality.

Ed_Littman:
First impression on comparisons.. Too honky, rigid and sculpted thin. On the other hand, translates well and may work better in many environments. For aficionados, it could be teething... I’d say, print!

MikeyC:
Great of the bat! Calm, clean and still fancy. My preference, in addition to your flavour, would have been to attempt a honky frequency excavation of sorts.

Loji_master:
Nice original dynamic flow throughout. A slither too brown and cloudy or dark. Touch gain dependent too. Some Air sprite neglect.

fuse:
Dense, constrained and crushed. Gentler strokes maybe called for. Revisit tangent taken.

DOMC_r8b:
Simply too plump and raucous, admits serious congestion. Nonetheless, immense and raw sizewise!

BSLOBODIAN
Compliments the original, without too much upheaval. Slight resonant and a quantity of tasty EQ carve up, a miss! Maybe next time.

viitalahde:
Another take, in original panache! At times feels brawny. Except, and like some others...  An EQ sculpt of sorts; to bring out more characterization and clear timbre, slightly a miss. Still liked!

Waltz Mastering:
Thick and chunky! May perhaps have lost definition. Sushi EQ chef, a miss! Nonetheless, a smoother envelope felt!


Ciao’
KAyo
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T. Mueller

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 11:19:22 AM »

All, I've stated it elsewhere, but wanted it to be here: I was absolutely planning on doing this WUMP, and my computer went down during the due date.

If you all would like a submission and comments, I can get to it this week, but I assume I should just hold out for the next time around. I'm a little bummed; this is the second one I've missed in a row.  The first was due to moving locations.

Busy around here this week! Just let me know!

(Excuses, excuses...)
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ATOR

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 12:03:48 PM »

Wow, its quiet in here.

I was gonna make a wump19 tech thread but since there are 12 submitted masters and only 5 reviews, that thread's gonna be a very lonely place  Crying or Very Sad

So if you feel the need to share your tech notes you can do it over here.




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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

T. Mueller

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 12:06:28 PM »

ATOR,

If the FTP info is still correct, I'd be glad to participate and take a listen... I'm good to go now; could probably get to it this weekend. It's up to you guys, though. I'm clearly WAYYY past the deadline, and (as mentioned elsewhere) wasn't able to get to it for unforeseen (and unavoidable) reasons.
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Waltz Mastering

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 01:12:26 PM »

ATOR wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 12:03

Wow, its quiet in here.

there are 12 submitted masters and only 5 reviews, that thread's gonna be a very lonely place  



I'd be up for some more reviews. But either way, no biggy.

TotalSonic

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 02:52:36 PM »

Sorry - been pretty busy the past couple weeks.  I did an initial listen through of all the submissions the other day but didn't have a chance to go more in depth.  For me the nature of the track kind of calls for fairly deep listening to really give feedback of any use.  I'll be able to post my comments after this weekend (AES and sessions taking precedence).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

ATOR

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 04:08:53 PM »

T. Mueller wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 18:06

ATOR,

If the FTP info is still correct, I'd be glad to participate and take a listen... I'm good to go now; could probably get to it this weekend. It's up to you guys, though. I'm clearly WAYYY past the deadline, and (as mentioned elsewhere) wasn't able to get to it for unforeseen (and unavoidable) reasons.


I'm sorry T, better luck next time.
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

T. Mueller

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 04:17:56 PM »

No worries; I was just responding to your point that there weren't a lot of responses...

Just less for me to do this week!  Thanks again for organizing WUMP and managing it!
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2009, 08:03:52 AM »

ATOR wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 11:03



So if you feel the need to share your tech notes you can do it over here.


So.. Let's go Ed! Laughing  
And, that's if you can remember them. Twisted Evil  Cool

KAyo
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Ed Littman

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2009, 10:51:20 AM »

Ok here goes...Cleaned up a few noises through out.

Buzz EQ  
-2db @ 335 hz, wide bw
+1 db @ 13500 hz,  med bw

STC-8
0 threshold, makeup gain only

Dangerous S&M
one notch wide

A bit more makeup gain while  Captureing @24 bits

Dither to 16bits.

Ed
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2009, 06:58:05 PM »

Ed Littman wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 22:51

Ok here goes...Cleaned up a few noises through out.

Buzz EQ  
-2db @ 335 hz, wide bw
+1 db @ 13500 hz,  med bw

STC-8
0 threshold, makeup gain only

Dangerous S&M
one notch wide

A bit more makeup gain while  Captureing @24 bits

Dither to 16bits.

Ed


This is an all analog mastering path, not really very appreciated in classical music recording.
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TotalSonic

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2009, 07:26:52 PM »

Schallfeldnebel wrote on Wed, 14 October 2009 18:58

Ed Littman wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 22:51

Ok here goes...Cleaned up a few noises through out.

Buzz EQ  
-2db @ 335 hz, wide bw
+1 db @ 13500 hz,  med bw

STC-8
0 threshold, makeup gain only

Dangerous S&M
one notch wide

A bit more makeup gain while  Captureing @24 bits

Dither to 16bits.

Ed


This is an all analog mastering path, not really very appreciated in classical music recording.



How come so many orchestral and chamber recordings I have with these "unappreciated" analog production chains from the 1950's - 1980's sometimes sound better to my ear than many current "purist" all digital offerings?  Am I the only one who hears it this way?

I tried an all digital version using just a linear phase eq for this track initally but to my ear it didn't work as well as doing an all analog version with somewhat similar processing as the chain that Ed has posted.  

The original recording had a slightly unnatural low midrange resonance to my ear - and digtal eq's simply did not clear this out in as pleasurable and more natural sounding way to my ears than a well set analog one did.

Obviously ommv - but as a listener to a good deal of contemporary/"new" orchestral and chamber works - and as someone intimately familiar with how these things sound live in both rooms and concert halls - gotta say the "digital purist" mastering on many of these often is atrociously mediocre - including transients that are way un-naturally sharp, dynamics that are over exaggerated to the point of being unable to hear low level parts at all if fortissimo sections are to be played in anything less than a painful place without having to constantly manipulate the volume knob.  i.e. a lot of times these "purist" representations do NOT sound the way things do live in the room!

To be clear - I am in no way, shape or form advocating the type of over bearing processing that exists on pop recordings should ever be applied to classical recordings - but I do have to state that the taboo towards using analog processing at the mastering stage that has been put over the "classical" genre to me has often undermined the ability to achieve better sounding results for a good number of releases.

Anyway - while I don't work on orchestral recordings with any regularity I do in fact get a decent share of chamber and acoustic music coming through here - and I've found that more often than not the artist or producer in fact greatly appreciates the results achieved with analog processing over more "purist" techniques.

Best regards,
Steve Berson


Schallfeldnebel

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2009, 11:17:30 AM »

How come so many orchestral and chamber recordings I have with these "unappreciated" analog production chains from the 1950's - 1980's sometimes sound better to my ear than many current "purist" all digital offerings? Am I the only one who hears it this way?

Steve, the recordings you mention were mixed on site with analog mixers, and recorded directly to stereo analog tape, sometimes four tracks, then transferred to laquer disc. The good sounding ones among those old recordings, were all made by very professional engineers and producers, something you cannot always say for our time nowadays.

Probably the largest part of classical recordings still are made with analog mixers. The best results using an analog chain with recording classical music you achieve by mixing on site directly to two tracks stereo. Once a recording is digitalised, every extra DA->AD conversion, adds up more digital harshness. Mixing on site is nervracking, but it pays off though. Nowadays we are spoiled with cheap multitrack solutions, and it is very tempting to leave the mix for at home.  Although I bought in 2000 two Genex 8500 8 track machines, I mixed everything on site until 2002 directly to stereo, and even today I mix during recording.  I feel more comfortable mixing directly into two channels, because when your mix does not work, you change the microphone positioning, something you can not do at home while you are mixing. Since I started using digital mixing, I still made a direct mix to stereo, while recording parallel to multitrack, which is mixed digitally afterwards. Depending on the project, I still use to mix analog into stereo on location.

Maybe a bit of topic, I have found no technical benefit using digital multitrack and mix through an analog chain back home in the studio. I know some people will argue with me, but if you compare the on-site analog mixed version with the studio analog mixed DA->AD from the digital multitrack, even the strongest advocaters of analog mixing in the classical music field must agree that the on-site analog mixed recording, direct from the microphones, sounds the purest. Once I visited the Teldec crew when they recorded the Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam in the late 90s. They mixed with 2 Studer 962 mixers directly into a stereo SONY MOD, and for back-up a Sony multitrack was running parallel only in case of an emergency, and hopefully never needed.

It is the extra DA-> AD conversion which should be avoided in my opinion. Once digital, stay digital. If not, record in DSD multitrack, analog multitrack, half inch stereo, but no extra PCM-> analog -> PCM conversion. I also don't see that a bad recording can be enhanced by going through an analog chain, as if the sound of that chain solves acoustical and balancing problems.


Obviously ommv - but as a listener to a good deal of contemporary/"new" orchestral and chamber works - and as someone intimately familiar with how these things sound live in both rooms and concert halls - gotta say the "digital purist" mastering on many of these often is atrociously mediocre - including transients that are way un-naturally sharp, dynamics that are over exaggerated to the point of being unable to hear low level parts at all if fortissimo sections are to be played in anything less than a painful place without having to constantly manipulate the volume knob. i.e. a lot of times these "purist" representations do NOT sound the way things do live in the room!


Especially with contemporary music this is a problem, I totally agree with you. Also opera is rather difficult to record in terms of livingroom dynamics. I use from time to time very light compression with these above mentioned genres. You only have to be very careful not to use to much. Compression by using a piece of electronic gear is a total other thing than the natural compression of dynamics in the air. When I use those tools, I use them within the mix and I don't see it as a part of mastering, it is just a part of getting a well balanced and good sounding recording.


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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2009, 11:20:10 AM »

The usual culprits here…
RMEFireface 800 > NEVE Masterpiece II > TC MD3 > 16/44

NEVE Masterpiece II:-

Input Module
+2.5db


1515EQ-
16kHz +2db
Q3.0

1 kHz -2.5db
Q5.0

215 Hz -2db
Q3.5


TAPE texture-
Low Band
200 Hz [In]

1900Compressor-
Threshold -1db
Attack 20ms
Ratio 1.1:1
Release 175ms
Low Band [In]
Mid Band [In]
1.2 kHz [In]

Output Module
+3db


TC-MD3

In +1db
DC: off
Lo Xover 300 Hz
Hi Xover 2.15khz
Crest: RMS
Auto Gain: On
Nom/Del: 10ms
Ref Level: -10.0dbFS
Dither: 16bit
Headroom: OdbFS
EQ: ON
Low-cut 27 Hz Butterworth
9 kHz + 0.5
940 Hz +1db

Normalize: Off
Soft Clip: Off
Comp > Off
Ceiling > -0.01db
Output fader: +2db



Ciao,
KAyo
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Ed Littman

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2009, 01:23:37 PM »

Quote:

Schallfeldnebel wrote on Wed, 14 October 2009 18:58
This is an all analog mastering path, not really very appreciated in classical music recording.



Quote:

It is the extra DA-> AD conversion which should be avoided in my opinion. Once digital, stay digital. If not, record in DSD multitrack, analog multitrack, half inch stereo, but no extra PCM-> analog -> PCM conversion.




Whats more appreciated the outcome or the method?
I find what you say informative as you have more experience in this genre, but I guess ignorance is bliss for me as i try not prescribe to any rituals or traditions. For me the result is the only expectation. My Eq choice has much more an effect over the use of a Lavry Gold ADC (good or bad). So the extra conversion is a moot point to me.
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Schallfeldnebel

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2009, 06:28:08 PM »

Whats more appreciated the outcome or the method?


Probably the technical quality issue with classical music is much more delicate than other music. I have tried to solve recording problems with converting back to analog processing and re-convert to digital. It may bring the wished artistic alteration, but you pay it with a certain quality loss.

It is not the analog processing, but the DA->AD conversion which bothers me most.

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Bill Mueller:"Only very recently, has the availability of cheap consumer based gear popularized the concept of a rank amateur as an audio engineer. Unfortunately, this has also degraded the reputation of the audio engineer to the lowest level in its history. A sad thing indeed for those of us professionals."

MC

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Re: WUMP 19 - comments
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 01:42:59 PM »

Hey Guys,

 Pardon the tardiness:)  

Just finally had a chance to listen. I think this is harder to judge that other wumps.
I always try to look at it from a client's perspective.Being for archival purposes its a bit tough to do that. I'm not going to bother going into major details about each, all entries were actually fairly similar. Some a bit thicker than others.

My path:

Samplitude 9
Algorithmix red
Tc MD3 (with MB on)
Tc Brickwall Limiter.

Looking forward to other wumps. MikeyC

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