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Author Topic: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question  (Read 5909 times)

tetrahedron

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Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« on: August 27, 2009, 02:47:48 pm »

Hello everyone. Nubee here. I'm in the Conceptual Design phase for a small control room and am ready to place the monitors on the face of the Soffit plane.
Normally this hasn't been a problem as I've used these type monitors as a default model for conceptual room configuration.



http://httpics.com//is.php?i=759&img=6760Monitor_Build_w.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=494&img=722Monitor_Build_w.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=761&img=306Soffit_ala_cart.jpg
Normally, the soffit face cutouts would look like this.
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=652&img=DSCF7750.JPG




However, my client is currently Interested in the Griffin G1(thats your company isn't it Francis?). I've drawn these to the specs given on the product page at the Griffin site.  As I started to place them on the monitoring VERTICAL axis, it dawned on me that I really didn't know which Centerline to use...the Enclosure or the Mid Driver centerline(or other if thats the case)
So, my question IS:

Can anyone tell me what the NORM would be here for centering the G1 on the Soffit/engineer monitoring Vertical plane centerline? Heres what I'm dealing with. Please understand these are only conceptual models to assign the planes for the Interior envelope.


http://httpics.com//is.php?i=754&img=G1_monioring_pl.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=755&img=6268G1_monioring_pl.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=760&img=3623G1_Monitor_Cent.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=757&img=G1MID_DRIVER_Ce.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=758&img=G1_Center_ALIGN.jpg



Furthermore, I've come across some info that suggests that my current "DEFAULT" model should actually be flush mounted in a soffit VERTICALLY, as the author stated that the sonic image could be smeared by time differences from the 2 woofers when  Horizontally mounted as shown. Is this true? I've seen MANY studios with monitors typical to these in the horizontal plane, so I don't know who to believe....just like splayed walls/ceilings, hangers, flush mount vs free standing monitors, Space couplers and QRD vs Polys , LEDE vs Neutral vs DELE spaces vs...what ever is in vogue today
amongst others.  Rolling Eyes  Razz
Anyway,
Thank you
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 05:40:08 pm »

tetrahedron wrote on Thu, 27 August 2009 13:47


I've seen MANY studios with monitors typical to these in the horizontal plane, so I don't know who to believe....



AFAIC and from the various discussions I had with speaker specialists while working on projects (the guys that actually design them) it's better and recommended to have them in the vertical plane.

Now, as usual in this field, this is a "different shades of grey" area. Some use DSP correction lately to manage the speaker's behaviour. With various levels of success. My opinion is that I want to avoid these DSP stunts altogether.

A side note: you should also avoid tilting them more than 5
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Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
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franman

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 10:37:49 pm »

tetra,

We should speak about this directly... basic answer is the centerline is the line through the midrange(s) and tweeter. The crossover to the woofer is low enough that it isn't making a significant contribution to directional information. Always mount diapolito configured speakers in the vertical. The lobes between the mids and tweeter cause strange response in the horizontal is mounted on the horizontal. The angle of the wall is determined by several factors but the goal is to keep the midranges equi-distant from the targeted listening position to avoid cancellation and comb filtering in these critical mid range frequencies. Please feel free to contact me directly regarding more specifics and or course, the possible Griffin Sale (Yes, it's my company)..

FM
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franman

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 10:38:10 pm »

tetra,

We should speak about this directly... basic answer is the centerline is the line through the midrange(s) and tweeter. The crossover to the woofer is low enough that it isn't making a significant contribution to directional information. Always mount diapolito configured speakers in the vertical. The lobes between the mids and tweeter cause strange response in the horizontal is mounted on the horizontal. The angle of the wall is determined by several factors but the goal is to keep the midranges equi-distant from the targeted listening position to avoid cancellation and comb filtering in these critical mid range frequencies. Please feel free to contact me directly regarding more specifics and or course, the possible Griffin Sale (Yes, it's my company)..

FM
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tetrahedron

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2009, 12:57:15 pm »

Hello gentleman and thank you for your replies. I do have further questions but do not have the time at the moment to post them. I appreciate you taking the time to address my issue and I'm sorry I didn't get right back to acknowledge your posts. I'll be back as soon as I can.

fitZ
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tetrahedron

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2009, 01:43:36 am »

Quote:

tetra,

We should speak about this directly
Hello Mr. Manzella.
I would, but I don't think the private message supports sending files along with the message. And I don't think I can properly describe what I want to know without these jpgs. Besides, it might interest others in your answers. Unless they are you own "trade secrets", which I don't think you would hand over to a stranger anyway. Very Happy

So, let me begin by describing the criteria which directs my conceptual model layout up to now.

First, I've used some typical paradigm that have been around for a while.

1. Equilateral Triangle Monitoring geometry
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=773&img=1403Equalateral_Tri.jpg
2. Distance from front wall to Target plane. I used a "starting point distance" which has become a "defacto" Home Studio paradigm, of "38% of room length", courtesy of Mr. Newell.
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=774&img=Target_Point.jp.jpg  

Which brings me to my first question.  

How or what do YOU use to determine where the sonic "target point" IS, in relation to the front wall?

4. Engineers EAR plane.
I used the standard 18" in front of Target Plane.

5. Monitor center line Height.
 This brings up another question. To determine this,
I rationalized the monitors should be high enough so both Mid drivers center lines, were above the console. It was kind of arbitrary on my part, but I figured the width of the plane created by a center line from both mids, would create a Plane which would approximately cover the ears on each side.(See jpg above) This resulted in a Soffit vertical angle of 8 degrees.
Which, Mr. Blackwood said above is too much. However, IF, this center line between the two mid drivers is rotated from the Target point as a center rotate point, down to 5 decrees, the G1 lower Mid driver is below the top of the console bridge line. If I simply raise it in the Z direction, now the distance from each Mid to the Target point would be different. Which actually brings up my next question. BTW, I did move the G1's so the Mid drivers are now the center line of the vertical monitoring lanes.

Quote:

 The angle of the wall is determined by several factors but the goal is to keep the mids equi-distant from the targeted listening position to avoid cancellation and comb filtering in these critical mid range frequencies.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you look at these jpgs, they may illustrate my point.

IF, the center lines from each Mid driver to the target ARE equi-distant(which means the face of the enclosure will be perpendicular to the center line of the enclosure to the Target)
this Plane can be ROTATED in either vertical direction(up or down) and still maintain a equi-distance from the Mid drivers center line to the Target...whew!   Anyway, what am I missing? In other words, to my way of thinking, there is an infinite number of angles that this could determine. So whats wrong with this picture? I don't get it.
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=775&img=Mid_Driver_Dist.jpg
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=776&img=Rotated_Driver_.jpg

And finally, at least for this post, the issue of the width of the wall between soffits and how other designers assign the Target point distance from the front wall, still keep an equilateral triangle, and get enough width for a WINDOW?

 At least when the 38% paradigm  is used, in order to have a wall wide enough to insert a window, the room length must be HUGE! which expands the triangle, which makes the room wider, which THEN allows for a Window. However, I see control rooms all the time with windows and soffits, but the engineering position is so far forward, an equilateral triangle would be impossible. Whats your take on this stuff?

Anyway, thanks for any insight. I'll be back with a few more questions later.






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tetrahedron

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2009, 02:00:28 am »

Oh, btw, you might be interested in seeing the conceptual model as it is today.
http://httpics.com//is.php?i=768&img=2631Left_Front_Elev.jpg
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2009, 05:50:06 am »

38% rule... IMHO, You can safely ignore this one in all shaped rooms, and as a matter of fact in most rooms.

Is the mid part of your front wall absorptive? If so, I'd be careful with that...

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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

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tetrahedron

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2009, 01:15:37 pm »

Quote:

38% rule... IMHO, You can safely ignore this one in all shaped rooms, and as a matter of fact in most rooms.
Hello
Mr. Jouanjean. Ok, then would you care to offer your methodology for determining this. I've been trying to gain an insight into other designers "point of view" in this regard for a long time. It seems to be one of those "proprietary" secrets. However, if this is indeed an "arbitrary" issue which may differ with each set of circumstances, I'll add it to my list of "phylisophical" idiosyncracys such as I mentioned above.  Very Happy

Quote:

s the mid part of your front wall absorptive? If so, I'd be careful with that...
Frankly, I was hoping for a comment like yours. You see, I am not an acoustician. Only a designer with an interest in Studio design. However, thats not to say I'm not involved in Pro studio projects. Could you elaborate on your view of this area? I actually was interested in a window. Hence my questions in that regard. Resolving the equilateral triangle/38% conundrum was my purpose in starting this thread, although the G1 issue started it.
Anyway, thank you for your reply.
fitZ
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Constantin

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2009, 01:52:46 pm »

Looks like this is the project you asking for:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13 505&start=0

With the above linked thread we can have a look at the whole picture of your plans.
cheers
Constantin

tetrahedron

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 04:21:04 pm »

Quote:

Looks like this is the project you asking for:
You are correct...almost. In fact, I am working on another project that I used these models for as a beginning point. And this particular model was one I used of the authors layout he did himself as a contrast to the actual conceptual design
that is different from his plan. As an aside, for those who visit that thread, please excuse a little "difference of opinion" that happens EVERY TIME I post there. Especially with one certain party which you will see. Again, that's not my norm.

 And should you visit, and see the "height" and "angled ceiling" issue my detractor has so vividly described as "reflection city", and the other as "pointless"..let me say this. The first time I viewed the authors extruded control room floor plan, it occurred to me there was more height to be exploited in each bay between steel beams. I only expanded what appears to other people as a "ceiling", when in fact it was used to describe my question to him of the ACTUAL height dimension to the top of the windows. This area in this so called "angled ceiling" could be used for a number of things...ie.."hangers", deep iso insulation, duct work or any number of things. However, my detractor immedietly jumped to the conclusion this was a finish ceiling line, which in reality is ludicrous as there isn't even enough room to the actual roof to build any iso whatsoever.  In other words...it was a drawing to find the limitations of the dimensional space height wise. PERIOD. I even mentioned this fact early on...but noooooo, some people have to jump right in the moment you post ANYTHING and start ripping you apart. Oh well. Thats why I reacted the way I did in that thread. Please try and ignor it. Thank you all.

ps. in regards to "reflection city"...isn't that what all boundaries are capable of? And isn't there this stuff called...ABSORPTION and or DIFFUSION? Rolling Eyes

fitZ
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2009, 05:00:47 pm »

tetrahedron wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 12:15


Mr. Jouanjean. Ok, then would you care to offer your methodology for determining this. I've been trying to gain an insight into other designers "point of view" in this regard for a long time. It seems to be one of those "proprietary" secrets. However, if this is indeed an "arbitrary" issue which may differ with each set of circumstances, I'll add it to my list of "phylisophical" idiosyncracys such as I mentioned above.  Very Happy


It's like everything else in acoustics, it's really tangled up in a LOT of factors that influence each other constantly. The 38% set comes from a calculation done in a very specific set of conditions. Hence it's not a "rule" anymore as soon as these conditions are not met.

Well, it's an "internet" rule. There are a lot of those...

A designer will work the maths so that with regards to the space he works on the Sweet Spot ends up where it needs to be. Sometimes constraints are such that you cannot have it where you want it, and you need to compromise on ergonomics, but this situation is the exception, not the rule.

tetrahedron wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 12:15

Frankly, I was hoping for a comment like yours. You see, I am not an acoustician. Only a designer with an interest in Studio design. However, thats not to say I'm not involved in Pro studio projects. Could you elaborate on your view of this area? I actually was interested in a window. Hence my questions in that regard. Resolving the equilateral triangle/38% conundrum was my purpose in starting this thread, although the G1 issue started it.
Anyway, thank you for your reply.
fitZ



The equilateral triangle is important. Just like I said earlier too, the tilt angle in the speakers should not be of more than 5
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

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FOCAL Professional Speakers

Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 05:01:27 pm »

Thx for the link Mika...

Constantin wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 12:52

Looks like this is the project you asking for:

 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13 505&start=0

With the above linked thread we can have a look at the whole picture of your plans.
cheers
Constantin

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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

Pro Audio Partners:
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FOCAL Professional Speakers

tetrahedron

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 12:22:53 pm »

Hello  Mr. Jouanjean. Thank you for the information. I appreciate sharing your insight.

One other thing for now. I noticed your "partner" below the link to your site. I'm curious why many pro studio designers also own or "partner" with a speaker company? Not to suggest any impropriety, but isn't that somewhat of a "conflict of interest"?
Or is it that your control room designs rely on in house testing of these products and use proprietary understanding of their performance for integration within the overall design strategy? Like I said, I'm just trying to gain an insight into the sphere of pro studio design. Thanks again.
fitZ
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Griffin G1 Vertical monitoring centerline Axis question
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 12:57:56 pm »

tetrahedron wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 11:22

I noticed your "partner" below the link to your site. I'm curious why many pro studio designers also own or "partner" with a speaker company? Not to suggest any impropriety, but isn't that somewhat of a "conflict of interest"?


It's not a conflict of interest at all. It's a Synergy really!

AFAIC, both FOCAL and ATC provide me with speakers that I feel are the best around. Period. Of course, it is also a question of taste, and therefore I remain flexible with my clients. But if you ask me "what do you recommend", you'll hear those 2 names.

These are companies with tons of knowledge, decades of experience and with whom I can safely share a lot of information knowing it is safe.

For example with ATC, when it comes to mains systems I systematically work hand in hand direct with their engineers/designers. ATC can offer me something every designer dies for: high standard custom solutions on a per-project basis. FOCAL has the same kind of mentality. They just won't be satisfied with "good enough". Did you know that they produce everything in-house for example? Not a single part is outsourced. They even developped their own machines to produce their own parts. They both own hundreds of patents.

What amazing partnerships! So many possibilities! And with both these manufacturers, you just know that what you get is top-of-the-notch technology.

I put them in my signature because I want to make sure it is transparent that I work with them...

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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

Pro Audio Partners:
ATC Loudspeakers
FOCAL Professional Speakers
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