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[osumosan]

Reno wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 05:27

Ouch... It's pumping... bypass all compressors in you mix Too much compression kill the compression

Overcompressed, maybe a tad. Pumping? Really? I don't hear it. I was going for the max SSL in your face. A mastering engineer might take issue with getting a mix like this, but we aren't sending this for mastering.

Patrik T wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 07:12

osumosan - what a un-pleasing amount of limiter distortion. the glass tone in the breaks scares the shit out of me. have to press stop and check that there is not a fire alarm going off in my hood.

That's the distressors on the guitar buss. Me likey my disto.

MGA wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 20:36

Ouch seems someone went for that exciting new Death Magnetic sound anyway must protect ears so next...

Volume knob is your friend. Now I know what you're referring to. Haven't heard the album myself, but I know what you're saying. I admit I was trying my hand at the loudness thing, but trying to do it artistically.

Antman wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 02:55

Attack on guitars in intro feels weird, and occasionally throughout, but that could be cause of the way it’s mastered.

Hmm, what do you mean by weird. Are you missing transients? I heard a bit of that early on in my mixing and attributed it to the tracks, but didn't have time to track it down or try to fix.

0dbfs wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 08:42

Intro nice and warm. Nice articulation of the lead melody and drum fills/rolls. Nice vocal verb but I thought it was a bit too nice for her performance.

Thanks. I wanted a nice space that had clarity to go in the spaces between as much wrath as I could muster.

[Reno]

will the original mixer give his opininions about our mixes  

[rankus]

Reno wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 11:21

will the original mixer give his opininions about our mixes

I will TRY to do so... but I am currently booked solid through the end of October so finding the time may be difficult.

My thought on these IMP comments is always that I don't know what to say beyond the fact that my mix is the way I feel these songs (on all the IMPS) should be mixed.  SO by comparing your own mixes to mine should convey more information than I could ever convey in type.  I get a lot of insight simply by listening to others interpretations.

I have downloaded the mixes but have not had a chance to listen to any yet...

But I will try.  I will be playing the mixes for the band on Thurs night when they are in on another matter... but I don't know if we will have time to listen to them all, let alone comment... But I will make that suggestion to them and see what happens.  

I will also give them the files to take with them in the hopes they will find time to make comments and I will post those as well.

[rankus]

ooops.... Double post

[Reno]

Thanks rankus

[Reno]

No more?  

[rankus]

Hi all,  Sorry for the silence.. been chasing my tail trying to keep up with all the work. (thankfully)

The band and I have gone through all but 4 of the mixes and plan to finish up tonight (Friday the 11th).  Hopefully i can post tomorrow but it may be as late as Monday.

I don't know how useful these comments are going to be coming from non-engineers (the band).  They are like "that sounds weird etc."  But it will give ya'll insight on what it's like trying to decipher musicians input which can be trying.

One thing I'll comment on is that in general there are a lot of "special effects" type of things in these mixes .  My thought on this is that any mix that attracts attention to itself is not desirable.  A good mix must be as unobtrusive as possible and present the song/performance without distractions that will pull the listener out of the "suspension of disbelief" that is important to pull a listener into a song.  

Of course there are exceptions in certain genres (R&B Hip Hop etc) where these types of things are almost a requirement.

All in all a good turnout on this IMP considering the tracks were slightly challenging. Not just my tracking, but power pop can be one of the toughest genres to mix due to quick tempos and distorted guitars.. it can be tough to get good separation.  Good job by all!

Stay tuned.

PS:  I notice no mix from J this time around?  I was looking forward to hearing yours bro.



 

[j.hall]

i'll get mine posted man.  sorry.  i'm just trying to respect the rules.  i missed the deadline.

i'll put my mix up on the server tomorrow and let you know.  i won't post a link to it in fairness.

[rankus]

Ok here are the comments from the band:


Antman:

Kick a bit too deep and too loud. Mix sounds a little hollow overall.

Billybedaz:

Too much room verb on the drums for this type of genre.  Vocalist is wondering what type of effect is on her vocal?  Did you edit the phrasing?

Blacklight_uk:

Band thinks the intro sounds like Kings Of Leon (too verby etc,)  Too much delay/effect on the vocal for this genre.  Snare sounds s bit flat and lifeless. Cymbals too loud perhaps a monitoring or room issue? BG vocals sound good  .  Weird vocal effect during bridge.

iCombs:

Drums sound a bit weird or phased .. Snare sample comb filtering?  Overall not bad though.  Vocal a bit tucked in for the bands taste.

Mkane:

Way too much verb on the intro gtrs.  Distortion on vocal?  Singer didn’t care for the vocal treatement. Overall balances are pretty good.


Graham:

Gtrs are a bit muddy.  Drums sound a little too indy. (roomy / snr under mic too up) Hats sound harsh. Singer likes the vocals. Levels decent.

H201:

Vocal tuning in the wrong direction in a lot of places.  The cymbals are bright and too loud. Toms sound good.

Jason Thompson:

Snare drum needs to be brighter.  Vocal effect a little distracting.  Overall the band likes this better than the others so far.



patrik_t:

Vocal effect sounds like I’m singing into a can.  Vocals sound detached from the rest of the mix.   Levels decent but EQ a little bit whacked.

PODGORNY:

Love the gtr intro edit! Too many filter effects or distortion. Band likes the ending as well.  Singer likes the mix overall except for the random vocal effects.

Reno:

Other than the weird filter effect in the intro, the mix sounds pretty good… but where did the cymbals go?  Singer likes that you didn’t mess with her vocals.

type_k:

Singer likes the toms, but the lead guitarist thinks the snare is poo poo crap.  (their words not mine)  Flange or phase on lead gtr overdone.  Singer thinks vocal could be brighter, but overall they sound decent.  Band liked the epic reverb intro!

Osumosan:

A little too much de-essing on the vocals (lispy)  Lead guitars nice and bright. . Rhythm gtr on the intro a tad tubby in the lower mids.




Thegreatcodfish:

Drums a bit quiet.  Snare sounds a little edgy and tight with weird ambience.
Balances a little off but going in the right direction.  Keep at it.

JoBu:

This what I was talking about in my earlier post regarding special effects.  These girls aren’t Pink Floyd.   The breaks sound like a drum kit falling down stairs. Vocals sound tubular.





Josh_McArdle:

Long fade in…kinda like that but it’s too long… Listener may change stations thinking its dead air.  Vocal tubular.  Guitars too crunchy in a digital way.



MGA:

Vocal WAY to out front. back down 4-5 db.  Snare could use treatment.  Weird phasy vocal doubles.    With better balances theres hope.




FINAL COMMENTS

The main two problems I hear through all these is the aforementioned distracting special effects, and overall balances.

The main tool we have as mixers is the fader…. Work long and hard getting the right balances between instruments, then balances between song parts.. Then as things develop you will notice something may need a bit of EQ to sit better and that s the time to reach for the knobs. (Drums of course need heavy handed EQ/Comp at the outset with this type of music)

Then as the mix develops further you may want to add a delay tail to a vocal or delay on lead solo etc.  You must ask yourself “is this in good taste?”  “is this going to distract the listener”?

“Does my mix sound like it could be on the radio”?  

The two most important things in a mix are the Vocal and the Snare…  Everything else must support them.  

The vocal IS the song.  

The snare sets the ambience :
(Big?  Small?  Tight? Indie?  Metal?  80’s Rock … this can simply be a matter of snare tone and treatment.)

[h2o1]

>Vocal tuning in the wrong direction in a lot of places.
i cannot believe in such ignorance. tell her that she sings in a wrong direction in a lot of places . fucking star.

[Reno]

Quote:

>Vocal tuning in the wrong direction in a lot of places. i cannot believe in such ignorance. tell her that she sings in a wrong direction in a lot of places . fucking star.

OWh!!!

Punk-Rock is not classic music... The most important is the emotion and the artistic interpretation!

So in a song like this, singer is pretty good and the detuning is acceptable, melodyne or autotune is completely useless...

She's not Celine DION   recording the next TITANIC SOUNDTRACK!!!

and...

Quote:

i cannot believe in such ignorance

I listen to your mix... Sorry but Rankus is right! Melodyne correct the tune... but if you chose the wrong tone scale...

[Billybehdaz]

Reno wrote on Tue, 15 September 2009 05:18

Punk-Rock is not classic music...

What about this tune is even remotely "punk rock"?  Maybe I'm out of touch with current music and stuck in my ways, but calling this music punk rock seems like a weak alibi for an extremely poor vocal performance in what is otherwise clearly a pop tune.  IMO, the vocal HAD to be tuned, otherwise it didn't fit the track at all.  I thought this tune was no different than the last IMP (genre wise) just not as well written, tracked and performed thus requiring a little more work.

rankus wrote on Mon, 14 September 2009 13:26

The main two problems I hear through all these is the aforementioned distracting special effects, and overall balances.

I'd agree with this.  I think when we do these IMP's people tend to want to make their mix stand out, hence a lot of 'personal stamps' from the mixer which sometimes do not enhance the track but wind up being distracting.  I've certainly been guilty of this myself.  Also, it's hard to critique with an open mind when you've heard the song 'your way' (or in the case of the band, the original mix) maybe 100+ times.  Anything remotely different sounds a little off unless it's totally blowing away your mix.


However -

rankus wrote on Mon, 14 September 2009 13:26

The two most important things in a mix are the Vocal and the Snare…  Everything else must support them.

eh.....maybe.  I'd say the most important thing is THE SONG.  What's the message?  Is there a standout performance in the track?  What drives the groove, etc?  I'd agree that in country and pop the vocal and snare should probably be featured, but maybe not in metal, punk, etc.  It really depends on the song, and that's what made this tune a tough one.  The vocal perfomance DID NOT stand out as a track that should be featured, however nothing else really did either and the vocal is typically featured in this genre.  That may be why we had so many peeps trying to add some excitement to this track with their own ideas, there just wasn't really a strong performance to feature.

Anyway, I say feature the song, and the elements that groove and performances that stand out.  What say ye?


please discuss.

[Reno]

Quote:

What about this tune is even remotely "punk rock"? Maybe I'm out of touch with current music and stuck in my ways, but calling this music punk rock seems like a weak alibi for an extremely poor vocal performance in what is otherwise clearly a pop tune. IMO, the vocal HAD to be tuned, otherwise it didn't fit the track at all. I thought this tune was no different than the last IMP (genre wise) just not as well written, tracked and performed thus requiring a little more work.

extremly poor vocal performance??? subjective...
For me, this vocal performance = Good performance and a lot of charm...

Mick jones and joe strummer were often out of tune... Just listen to "should I stay or should I go".

my opinion : I LISTEN to the music, I don't watch it in a software...

so if the tune don't disturb my ears and the musicality of the song, I don't even start autotune or melodyne...

[rankus]

rankus wrote on Mon, 14 September 2009 13:26

I'd agree with this.  I think when we do these IMP's people tend to want to make their mix stand out,

So true

Reno wrote on Tue, 15 September 2009 05:18

I'd say the most important thing is THE SONG.  ~snip~ Anyway, I say feature the song, and the elements that groove and performances that stand out.  What say ye?

I guess that is what I was trying to say here, (below) but perhaps it needed the detail you added... we are in a agreement for sure.

rankus wrote on Mon, 14 September 2009 13:26

The vocal IS the song.

And yes, the singer is not about hitting all the notes dead on... singing flat is just her style.  Some "get it" and some do not.  This band is somewhat of anquired taste sort of thing but she's doing ok with a small dedicated fan base.

This does open a bigger question for me whenever I think about it:  Why is there such a double standard in music when it comes to singing?  The Ramones had a strange sounding singer, Tom Petty ain't exactly the greatest singer, ... John Lydon, Dylan, .. the list can go on and on.  But when it's a female singer we expect an angelic pitch perfect no warts performance....

Just a thought for discussion

[Billybehdaz]

rankus wrote on Tue, 15 September 2009 12:56

This does open a bigger question for me whenever I think about it:  Why is there such a double standard in music when it comes to singing?  The Ramones had a strange sounding singer, Tom Petty ain't exactly the greatest singer, ... John Lydon, Dylan, .. the list can go on and on.  But when it's a female singer we expect an angelic pitch perfect no warts performance.... Just a thought for discussion

Well, there's Patti Smith and Joni Mitchell.  They're both not technically great singers but pretty well known as performing artists with a large fan base.  Maybe L7?  They're kinda 'punk'.  Kim Deal?

I guess I allowed myself to pigeonhole this IMP as needing the vocal tuned as it sounded similar to Fall Out Boy, Paramore, etc. where the current trend is perfectly tuned vox.  Perhaps I missed the intent. It is time to buck the trend of the last several years and lay off the perfect pitch tuning, however I still think the vocal was a little too off the mark to be considered 'raw' or whatever, but I guess that's a pretty subjective comment on my part.

You said the band's doing well with a modest following, do you have a link to any of their other stuff?  I'd be interested in checking it out.