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[J.J. Blair]

Is Bob widening or adding reverb?

I mean, I don't mind somebody carving the crap out of a mix with an EQ, but don't fuck with my imaging or add reverb.

[Darius van H]

Bob is widening.

I didn't hear any added reverb.

[J.J. Blair]

He is for a fact widening?  That's fucked up then.  That changes the balance of the mix.  I go through this when people listen to mixes in iTunes without realizing Sound Enhancer is turned on.  They tell me that things that are hard panned are too loud, and then I tell them to turn that off, and everything is suddenly just fine.

I really hope that he's in fact not doing this.  Can anybody confirm this?

[Rick O'neil]

I use various  subtle in house widening techniques all the time to match tracks  from track to track , instead of level  or including level .
i never do it to "show off" or "better a mix"
and i do it at my own discretion

jj before you blast me , what i call subtle is  less then 1/4  of what most people  would call subtle and  more often then not the widening is done by the use of hf eq, or limiter settings not MS , although i use that as well  , however the point is that widening is a totally valid mastering technique for making all the sounds sit together track to track
and it's totally valid for the ME to do what ever he likes to the track on the day
If he gets it wrong , how long does his reputation stay intact ..?

if you dont like his "thing" as that guy called it  — fair enough maybe he was out of order

But  if you send in  a mix of ten songs  that like  to like  sit together  on an album with just level and eq    thats  exactly what you should expect to get back  .

but if you dont  .. then at my place and in fact in mastering studios everywhere  you may well find track 5 has is a touch width by some method or another  to allow it to sit  in place on the album , without having it feel too quiet  or small

I understand the idea that your g/fs music was inappropriately treated,  hell who wants to do that to a client ..?

And  I haven't used reverb on a track in living memory..

But I digress....
Image treatment simply  IS part of the ME job not something you get to say is Banned under the threat of violence .

Ruining or  worse not even honoring the mix is not part of an MEs job .

Of course I have no idea who your g/f is and had nothing to do with her job , but I think your vent at whoever totalled her record  was pretty heavy , maybe you scared a few guys into leaving the image ruining tools  off the mix tomorrow morning.
And thats probably a good thing .

But if ran into a mix  forum and told you it was never ever  a mix engineers job to do "such and such " or I would shove it up his  sunshine blocker .
You would probably   be the first post some  kind rational response..

JJ I have read MANY of your posts over time and never ever thought  you  were a lose cannon or hot headed.

He must have really trashed the record   !

But I do feel the ME is allowed to do whatever he whats to do , if he is ruining mixes, instead of making them translate, then  he will be out of business .
Or at least he should be .
there are plenty of "Name" ME who use an image tool of some kind at their discretion its fact  , its normal  its our job

With all these things communication is the key .
somewhere along the line in your story i think  somebody did not attended to that .

[J.J. Blair]

Rick, I've personally attended sessions with six different MEs doing mixes of mine.  At no time was widening done, or even brought up.  

The only problem I've personally encountered with continuity had to do with a tape machine misalignment, and one track was significantly brighter than the others.  We fixed with with the Tube Tech multiband comp.

If I mix one song "narrower" than the other songs, it's because that was my intention.  There are plenty of classic records that have examples of that, and nobody has ever complained.

Personally, I've never been a fan of M/S widening, in any degree.  Sometimes there are problems of mono cancellation.  But most importantly, when it comes to mixing, sometimes I'll do a trim of an instrument of just .5 dB or .25 dB to get something to sit exactly where I want.  How much does your 1/4 of what everybody else does change that level?  My decision to place that instrument precisely at the level that the artist and I agreed on has now been usurped.  The artist and I may have spent months making this record, and getting to that final result.  Now somebody who is spending a total of 4 or 5 hours on the record is deciding things for us after the fact.  I'm sorry, but in principle, I am against that.  

Also, I encourage all MEs to go into mix forums and school mixers, particularly on the use of limiting, with the threat of violence.  You must feel like that when you get a track for mastering, and it looks like a stream roller has visited it.  I had  a famous ME add distortion to a record I did (unintentionally, of course).  Violence certainly crossed my mind!  

[mcsnare]

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 08 August 2009 16:13

McNair, I'm just telling you the lesson she took from it.  I don't agree with it, personally.  I'm with you on this one.  I wouldn't hesitate sending you something. I mean, when I got to a mastering session, I rarely say anything other than "no L2, please," or some crossfade discussion.  I don't know the room.  I honestly have no idea wtf I am listening to until I get into my car.

Got it.
As far as the M/S thing. The amount of 'widening' (God I hate that word already) I, and every ME I know use (if used at all), is roughly equivalent to putting some tube mojo box like say an unlinked Vari-Mu on the mix and then everybody says "Wow it sounds great, even a little bit wider!" I don't think that amount would have anybody running to re-balance the side info. And I totally agree when overused and that means too much or even a small amount when uncalled for, it's disrespectful to the engineers' original intent.

Dave

[tom eaton]

JJ, you know Bob Katz invented a stereo image manipulation box and plug-in, right?

http://www.digido.com/k-stereo.html

[Waltz Mastering]

tom eaton wrote on Sat, 08 August 2009 19:35

JJ, you know Bob Katz invented a stereo image manipulation box and plug-in, right?

Only a grand for an M/S plug.; )

Widening can be subtle to exaggerated, but almost by default the reverb and ambience  inherent in a track is inadvertently   brought forward the more you exaggerate the side.

[J.J. Blair]

Ry Cooder liked the Sound Enhancer on iTunes so much, he decided not to use it in mastering.  Was it a good idea?   I dunno.

Dave, I'd have to hear yours and anybody else's technique.  But to default to that, I think is overstepping the ME's boundaries.  I mean, honestly, any competent mixer should be able to do something along those lines, and I think it should be the call of those mixing, not those mastering.  There's a reason I use the stereo techniques I use on some sources, and there's a reason maybe I'll triple stack harmonies, pan them hard and use some type of chorusing.  When I want stuff to sound lush and wide, I want that to be my call (and the artist's).  

I mean, I hate to insult you guys, but the most creative I want an ME to be, is going to be on fades, and maybe solving a problem I couldn't get around or didn't hear.  If I wanted you guys there for the mix process, I would have had you come over then.  

I honestly feel that people who respond more strongly to widening is much like people responding to making it louder.  

[jdg]

i've never widened a great mix.

not to make this whole thread about widening, but maybe when us mastering ppl widen, its mostly with poorer mixes.. it is in my case.

widening can be a great trick (that i'd rather not have to use)

anyway.. sucks that several grand where lost.. thats alot of scratch.
i've had one case where i did 3 different versions of an album for a client, to have him not use any, and go elsewhere.. and we agreed on a smaller kill fee, as to me that seemed fair.

[cass anawaty]

jdg wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 02:20

i've never widened a great mix. not to make this whole thread about widening, but maybe when us mastering ppl widen, its mostly with poorer mixes.. it is in my case.

Same here.  Don't have a choice sometimes, but also wouldn't dare reach for it on a good mix.

[Rick O'neil]

jj
by your passion on the subject i can only presume you know how to mix !
more power to you and wish all my clients  knew their mind so well

these are strange times , mastering guys are somehow promoted to the roles of kings because the artists and label have lost sight of the process.

somedays i  wish my world was simplier again , when a cutting guy was a cutting guy .
the artist the producer and the engineer got paid  and were three seperate  people
and i had at least one track in the top 10 once a fournight without even trying hard  
it came out of the tape box sounding  right !

nowadays more then half my work is unattended , i havent  met a producer with a new car in years and quite often the first guy to get paid on the album is me !

i think you know and actually understand  , but let me state it again
MEs need to do a whole lot more then we did in the past.. almost daily  , the times have well and truely  changed my friend .
and i am not sure as a whole we are better off for it

[J.J. Blair]

A mastering session was delayed once, and I sat in the waiting room for two hours, because the band was doing OVERDUBS DURING MASTERING.  

Look, it's the wild wild west out there with people who think they are engineers these days.  I totally get that when some joker brings you something he did in garage band, and it sounds like complete ass, there are no rules.  

Clearly, I'm speaking from the point of view of a professional who puts a lot of hard work into my craft.  Maybe some of these lines are getting blurred.  I dunno.  

[bigaudioblowhard]

Hey JJ, I got a caption for your new avatar.


"I think someone hid some pot and M&M's in this fader."


I'm not a big widener guy either.

bab

[bigaudioblowhard]