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Author Topic: To bleed or not to bleed...  (Read 3963 times)

Bo

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To bleed or not to bleed...
« on: July 14, 2004, 12:05:08 pm »

I've decided to ask this of several forums...

your opinions on bleed?

    I just tracked a singer/songwriter in my ghetto-fabulous home studio (yeah, I'm an amateur) and he likes to play & sing at the same time.  So, I threw up 3 mics: one ldc for vocals, one sdc on the acoustic, and a dynamic up in the corner (w/ the phase reversed).  
    Yeah, it bleeds all over the place, but we were going for a live performance type of feel, ala pedro the lion or iron & wine.  Does this annoy you in mixing; or in the right situation, do you embrace it?  I just started mixing last night and find both good and bad things...

what have you experienced in the world of bleed?
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j.hall

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2004, 12:31:40 pm »

i've recorded MANY projects all in one room including all the gear and myself

i love the vibe, i love the speed of communication, i love the bleed

if you really need something isolated, get creative on how to track it and prepare for an overdub

if the band sucks, you can't possibly pull this off

they have to be able to play as a band

as for solo artists.....i never ask a singer/acoustic guitar player to play the song with out singing

if they want to, then that's fine.....but i never assume

three mics would be my max

sometimes it's just one
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Bo

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2004, 12:34:12 pm »

you ever threw up a room mic, compress it hard, add a healthy dose of reverb and then tuck it under the rest of the mix?  I'm playing with trying to get weird/cool sounds w/ this...
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floodstage

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2004, 01:58:33 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 14 July 2004 12:31


....... snip .......

if the band sucks, you can't possibly pull this off

they have to be able to play as a band

...... snip .......





That, my friend is the crux of the bisquit!  




On a side note: When tracking an acoustic guitar player who sings at the same time,  try a figure 8 mic on the acoustic and place it so it's pattern will reject the vocals.

<edit>  Dislexxia alert!  Try the figure 8 on the vocals to reject guitar, not the other way around.  D'uoooh!!!  (thanks drumsound!)  <edit>
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drumsound

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2004, 03:08:14 am »

I'll often put a figure 8 on the singer to reject the guitar...
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judah

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2004, 08:24:23 am »

Bo wrote on Wed, 14 July 2004 18:05

I've decided to ask this of several forums...

your opinions on bleed?

    I just tracked a singer/songwriter in my ghetto-fabulous home studio (yeah, I'm an amateur) and he likes to play & sing at the same time.  So, I threw up 3 mics: one ldc for vocals, one sdc on the acoustic, and a dynamic up in the corner (w/ the phase reversed).  
    Yeah, it bleeds all over the place, but we were going for a live performance type of feel, ala pedro the lion or iron & wine.  Does this annoy you in mixing; or in the right situation, do you embrace it?  I just started mixing last night and find both good and bad things...

what have you experienced in the world of bleed?


Hi,
I'll throw my input here.
I have a small studio, and my trackin' room can fit a band in all its glory, say 4 people. Drums, bass, guitars and vocals. My most succesfull record was recorded entirely live, all in the same room. The room is about 40sqm. Anyway, it all depends on the genre of music you're workin on but I assume you're in my same field see you're in the J.Hall forum. Anyway, bleed IS good. It makes all the difference in the world, depending on your style of mixing you'll discover that you'll use less and less fx if you do have a satisfyin bleed in your tracks. most of the time I have the drums in teh center of the room, bass on one side and guitar on the other. I f I have two guitars I'd put the bass in the middle and the guitars on the side. Sometimes it's fun to pan the lft guyitar to the rght and viceversa. Sometimes it works better to put the guitar exactly where the bleed comes from. Anyway you'll get soon.
BTW, I'm kinda drunk right now, so please forgive my very bad english. It sucks when I'm sober, so....
Anyway, if you're recording a heavy metal band you don't want any kind of bleed. Yesterday I was mixing my FIRST metal album. The guitarist is the producer and he really knows his shit. He has great ears (really) and the EQ we were applying to the drusm were insane. Like 13dB at 8K!!! I couldn't stand the graphics from the EQ, I had to turn it off 'cause it wad too crazy to whatch at. Anyway. Bye. Yes.

R.

PS: if you're recording a solo artist, put a stereo mic setup on teh acustic, and a mic for the vocal. Then put one room mic, very far forward, compress it to death, and bring it up in the mix gently, listen to how it dramatically change th effeling of teh sogns. I once recorder one acustic songwriter with one single stereo mic setup. Vocals guitar and room all in the same mic. Very intimate and interesting. The sound was ood for him and so was for me. It might works. It might not. Good luck and yeah...
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spankenstein

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2004, 02:01:46 pm »

I like bleed. Like judah my best project has been 4 guys in a room all playing together. It has been the easiest to mix into a cohesive sound than anything else that I have done.
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debuys

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2004, 04:00:31 am »

In the case of one guitarist with a voice and no overdubs I'm all for it. I had a client that liked standing so I had to put tape on the floor indicateing his "batters box" and even still it turned out a little odd. With folks that dont mind sitting it's cool.

With whole bands it's great even if you will be overdubbing as long as the bass player doesn't fubar it. A cluncker that's overdubed on any other instrument than bass is fine with bleed. I'm not mentioning drums since that's obviouse; bad drum take, retrack.

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ted nightshade

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2004, 08:28:37 pm »

My first post at j.hall's new digs. Glad y'all are here. Good luck lighting a fire under indie rawk or whatever it is- I'm pretty far underground, totally invisible to radar, but I think we'll have to add an electric guitar if we're to really fit the bill here. Man, it's lonely when you just really don't fit in any box at all. One prime value is to create a band sound without mic'ed drums that is a whole sound in itself, and complete to the venue, not created at the soundboard. Getting into one-mic approaches for a whole ensemble live- keys, leslies, vibes, drums, vox, all mixed acoustically to the one mic. My thing may be a lot more hi-fi than most of this stuff here, but...

Anyway.

I'm a big connesiour (sp? I know that ain't right) of bleed- such amazing things can happen. I really like to have bleed be in phase- all mics up work together in phase. Or put it in phase with an IBP/ Just a couple/few mics. Everything live in one room.

I really love to let you hear the way 2 or 3 mics interact with their images and bleed pictures- it can have a dimensional clarity that gets lost as more mics open up. I'm sure beaucoup bleed from all kindsa mics is a thing of joy in itself, but striving for definition and punch and dimension, I like the approachable contrasts of just a couple/few.

What I do is, when I put up a mic, I try to put it up so the bleed it picks up is a beautiful sonic image in it's own right. When that nice bleed image interacts with the main mic image of the same instruments on the other mic, ah joy! That's the key, the bleed images have to be good in their own right. For my thing. YMMV if you are into lo-fi stuff.

I find that without bleed everything is appallingly sterile. I hear that a LOT. The way the various sounds interact in the room together live is just way bigger and lusher and healthier than anything canned you can apply after the fact. But you have to sacrifice total control! Yeah right, total control that won't allow you to ever achieve the size and color and energy of it all happening live in the room together, and all the combined sounds bouncing off the walls and getting it on gloriously in the air.

Bleed, but not just any bleed. Great bleed. Mics with great off-axis response pick up beautiful bleed pictures to my fussy puriste taste. Your idea of a beautiful bleed picture may be different- find ones you like and discover bliss.


I find that 8-10 feet or more of distance between mics makes for glorious dimensional bleed. For the singing acoustic guitarist, the mics are too close to be really glorious, but get them in phase with mic placement or IBP, even if you're using a null to reduce the bleed to microscopic proportions, and things get fat and present and good. If the singing acoustic guitarist is good enough use one mic and a room mic for just for the bleed, and you may find bliss.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Fibes

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2004, 12:49:08 am »

The only time bleed can bite you on the ass in a big way (as opposed to just gumming it) is bass bleed into the drum mics. Watch that shit like a hawk it can make your drums sound like they are underground. In a bad way...

Learning to make the bleed work for you is an exercise that is worthwhile and utilizing room mics and ambient mics ie. one in another room can be great, the beauty is you can always ditch them quickly at mix time.
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Fibes
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j.hall

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2004, 12:47:32 pm »

most common problem area is around 250

and you just can't dial it out...............

good point kevin!!!
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Fibes

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2004, 02:58:07 pm »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 12:47

most common problem area is around 250

and you just can't dial it out...............

good point kevin!!!


Glad i'm good for something.

On a similar note I prefer to isolate the bass when tracking (for the smear reason) and i've been looking into the butt thumper thingy that mounts under the drummers throne so he can feel the bass/kick better but bleed is reduced immensely. Anyone tried one of these things? I engineered a session where the drummer (a badass legend) brought one and swears by it. I didn't notice much bleed but since i didn't try it myself and he's pretty deaf i can't really say if it amounts to a hill of beans. Anyone using 'em?

250-500 in my room yech.
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Fibes
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ted nightshade

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2004, 05:15:59 pm »

Fibes wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 21:49

The only time bleed can bite you on the ass in a big way (as opposed to just gumming it) is bass bleed into the drum mics.


Vocal bleed into the acoustic guitar mic can hurt back there too... hurts a lot less if it's in phase with the vocal mic.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Fibes

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2004, 05:26:50 pm »

ted nightshade wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 17:15

Fibes wrote on Mon, 02 August 2004 21:49

The only time bleed can bite you on the ass in a big way (as opposed to just gumming it) is bass bleed into the drum mics.


Vocal bleed into the acoustic guitar mic can hurt back there too... hurts a lot less if it's in phase with the vocal mic.


Agreed, it's a hell of a lot easier to deal with than bass into drums especially when their is a monster SVT in the room. There's no need to even mic it...

Bad phase issues on solo acoustic guitar and voice sucks. If you aren't experienced getting it going right with 2+ mics, just use one.
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Fibes
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j.hall

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2004, 09:39:56 am »

Fibes wrote on Tue, 03 August 2004 16:26

 If you aren't experienced getting it going right with 2+ mics, just use one.



boy, you could easily say that about the whole process.....some of the tracks i've received to mix

a single mic in the toilet, down the hall from the tracking room would have been better.
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ted nightshade

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2004, 11:36:55 am »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 06:39


a single mic in the toilet, down the hall from the tracking room would have been better.


Funny you should say that- that's one of my prize listening positions.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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Bo

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2004, 04:12:03 pm »

j.

I guess I won't send you my mixes!  hahahaha, ahh the life of a ghetto setup: multiple mix checks and remixes, big bad boomy rooms, digital hell, and not enough money to improve the situation.

oh well, school eats my money and protools saps my creativity.
Good times.
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NelsonL

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2004, 04:38:38 pm »

I've been tracking vox and acoustic gtr a lot lately. We then use these tracks to build from adding any number of additional instruments depending on the tune.

I usually put up my LDC and try and get as close as possible.  Usually I can get real close. I then add an SDC on the guitar. My track counts never get high enough that I have to record over the SDC, but sometimes I don't end up using it.

I guess it depends on how much room you want in the vox, if you have the singer real tight on the mic (not really my style) then you're going to really need that 2nd mic on the guitar. I have a very limited palette of polar patterns so figure 8 ain't gonna happen fo me.
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j.hall

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2004, 10:24:54 am »

i've never used figure 8

i put a nice LDC on the acoustic

put up my earthworks for stereo room mics

and throw up either an SM-7 or another nice LDC for the vox.

little compression on the earthworks, and away we go.
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ted nightshade

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2004, 02:11:18 pm »

You gotta try fig. 8. Mucho proximity boost as well as much separation. Definitely one to have in the arsenal.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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j.hall

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2004, 02:40:25 pm »

i've used figure 8 before on different things

just not for acoustic guitar tracking

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bloodstone

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2004, 08:31:33 pm »

My greatest successes have been tracking everything live except the voice (although I try to get the vocal too).  The main thing that frustrates is what bleeds into the drum overheads: scratch voice, guitars and bass.  Later I'm often forced to mix the overheads a lot lower than I'd like.  Lots of bass in the kick drum mic can also be a pain.  
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j.hall

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Re: To bleed or not to bleed...
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2004, 09:53:01 am »

try using dynamics on the overheads and place them fairly close to the cymbals.  you'll still get a decent image of the kit, but you'll get really great rejection of guitars and bass.

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