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[Johnny B]

I've written to James Boyk at boyk@caltech.edu in hopes of getting some answers to my queries, but alas, I have not received a response, thus, I have decided to post my 2 questions here.  

As some of you know, Mr. Boyk has measured a muted trumpet's 100 and something 's harmonic out to around 102Khz. But is that the highest measurement from any standard musical instrument? I dunno.

And Peter P. has shared his knowledge about a grand old pipe organ with a measured low of around 8.5 Hz, but again. has any standard musical instrument been measured to be lower? I dunno.  

Now these questions have nothing to do with hearing, only measurable frequencies of what actually exists and has been measured from standard musical instruments. It has nothing to do with db downpoints, again, it just has to do with what has been measured and what frequencies actually exist.  

In these questions we are also excluding any issues of gear chain, recording, playback, and what people are supposedly able to hear, so these are 2 questions based solely upon scientific measurements using precision test equipment of frequencies that actually exist.

If at all possible, I would hope any answers could be expressed in Hertz.

Having said all that, here are the two questions:

1) From any given standard musical instrument, what is the highest frequency that has ever been measured?

2) From any given standard musical instrument, what is the lowest frequency that has ever been measured?

[Level]

I honestly do not know the actual highest note of the worlds largest pipe organ but the lowest note is '''''''C of the 64 foot pipe 'gravegratissimo' at 8.64hz

It was reported once that a monster contra contra double bass bassoon was constructed that had a key for ''''''''A flat and the actual frequency of the fundamental was 6.94hz. The one instrument tone was that of a "popping sound" and very rich in harmonics. Since then (early 20th century) no other instument of its kind has been constructed. I believe Puchner built this monster...but it could have been Heckel.

I do believe for the highest fundamental, one would need to also look toward the largest and most extensive pipe organs.

Since your original post included harmonics and not just the fundamental and the sound of the space shuttle is music to my ears, we can comfortably say that it has been measured at below 1/4th CPS.

[Johnny B]

Thanks Bill.

Yes, we can include any of the measurable harmonics.

[Johnny B]

Hmmm, are not more people interested in precision test gear measurements of what the highest and lowest frequencies that actually exist in the real world are? It would seem to my small brain that such measurements are a rather basic and rudimentary place to start if the ultimate goal is to accurately and fairly represent standard musical instruments. If we don't really know the answers, should not some applied research be conducted. I dunno.      

[Level]

My best microphones and mic amplifiers are -3dB at 55K and using 192Khz/24 bit recording, some info in the -45dB range on full scale classical music shows up..and it is not just noise..but rising and falling with the undithered signal. Above that, anyones guess.

Perhaps some field measurements in an anechoic chamber, using Bruel&Kjaer calibration instuments with various acoustic and wind driven instuments should be of order.

Remember, ultra high frequencies do not have a tendancy to disperse. They beam. They also can be reflected. They travel as (simalar to) tight light beams usually.

To capture them means you must be relatively 'point source'.

Loud thunder (live real time recording) on my spectrum ana. encompasses 2hz to 40K. The initial 'crack' contains some very high frequencies. How they get through the low frequencies is rather speculative. They do arrive first!!!

[ted nightshade]

Level wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 19:10

I It was reported once that a monster contra contra double bass bassoon was constructed that had a key for ''''''''A flat and the actual frequency of the fundamental was 6.94hz. The one instrument tone was that of a "popping sound" and very rich in harmonics. Since then (early 20th century) no other instument of its kind has been constructed. I believe Puchner built this monster...but it could have been Heckel.

It does me good just to think about it!

There's a woman in Ashland who has and plays a contra bass saxophone, or something like that, you have to stand on a ladder to play it. I won't have lived if I don't hire her to play that thing at me.

What all might you be interested in recording, Johnny B? It wouldn't have to be music, would it? How about the breakers crashing at the beach? That, if anything, will convince you that subsonic tones can be directional... And gulls too, engineered by what immortal hand and eye to be heard through this whole crashing of water on rock.

Or how about that certain sucking sound that lets you know that living things are respirating in the thin layer of water retreating from the sand, how many decibels down before the next wave explosion- I'd want to record that too.

[Level]

Like this one Ted?

Site:  http://www.nuclearwhales.com/


Pic:

[Johnny B]

Clearly, there are some fantastic musical instruments
which may not fall into the "standard" category. There are also a multitude of interesting sounds found in nature that can be used in conjunction with music such as Foley work, but I thought we could start with the simple things first like what people might normally encounter from a recording situation----meaning standard musical instruments...But since people will always want to do more and expand upon all boundaries...we can explore those other areas of interest too. There is no good reason not to do so.

Let's see if we can get some real world measurements posted here, ones that designers and end users could find useful.  

   

[Johnny B]

Still looking for the answers but I came across a few links to whitepapers and sites that people may find of interest so I'll post them to share with others.

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~prc/ism98fin.pdf

http://www.logosfoundation.org/ii/gesture-instrument.html

[steve parker]

level,

that is a fantastic pic!!!

steve parker

[ted nightshade]

What a great pic! Yeah, like that! Complete with the ocean thundering in the background.

What a treat!

[Level]

....you can tell by their feet.. they all seems to be a sockless bunch...either loafers or sandels...you got to love it!

(suntan evidence hehe)

[Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)]

Is the question limited to regular tones/harmonics, or should it include transients and noises (body thumps, etc.)?

[ted nightshade]

Scott Helmke wrote on Sat, 17 July 2004 05:48

Is the question limited to regular tones/harmonics, or should it include transients and noises (body thumps, etc.)?

I would say yes, include noises. The presence of some floor-pedal thumps on a recording is a big thing with a piano- hopefully the player is subtle, and it's a welcome thing. I've un-shockmounted mics to capture some of that after I carefully minimized it- too sterile for what I was after.

How low do footsteps on a wood floor go? Banging on an acoustic guitar?

How about the left heel on the floor as the drummer rocks the high hat? It can be deeper than the bass drum, many times!