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Author Topic: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms  (Read 6315 times)

brett

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wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« on: July 05, 2009, 05:35:59 am »

Been curious about the use of wood so close the mix position that it would be reflecting back to the listener in less than 22ms. Look at this pic. I also have a friend with a studio and his mix room has wood slats on all the walls in the control room, with what appears to be thick broad band behind it. What is going on this photo. Would I benefit from adding some slatted reflecting material over my broadband absorbers. I do not like the high frequency response of my room. index.php/fa/12773/0/
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2009, 02:51:31 am »

Usually they are part of a resonator. Can't say for sure in this particular case, but looks like it.

It's a design choice. Some like it, some don't. If you want better HF response in your room, I think you should consider diffusion.

I'm myself pretty partial to skyline diffusors. They are just great devices.
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Thomas Jouanjean
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2009, 06:18:58 am »

Ya, a dead room just sounds....dead. I want some life back in. I cup my ears wiht my hands and love the way the highs sound more like they do in my car. After all who listens to music in a dead space?  

where should the diffusers go? rear top sides...front? I am close to the front wall
@11x13x8. Have broadband above sides rear etc. and a rug under me. I also see the rooms in this manner with carpet at the boundaries but under the mix position is wood. Should I get rid of the area rug and put some carpet around the edges only? The floors are wood.  
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franman

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 03:09:17 pm »

Brett,

The classic approach for use of diffusion is to have the return be beyond the haas effect... the 20-22ms you refer to. We have done smaller rooms where this wasn't possible, and in my opinion this is one of the best applications for 2D diffusors such as the skyline/omnifussor types. These units spread the diffuse return in a hemisphere and as such, there is less return to the mix position (as compared to a 1D diffusor like a QRD). I believe that diffusion in the front of rooms has to be very carefully implemented. You don't want to have "early returns" even from diffusors as this will cloud imaging and the overall depth on the source material. In a 13' deep room, depending on your listening position distance from the front, it should be possible to get near a 20msec 'round trip' from the speakers (past your listening position) - to the diffusors - and back the listening position. It's the difference in the time of direct vs: diffuse return that you are concerned about.

With regards to carpet around the perimeter, is the ceiling is trapped, then we typically use hard flooring throughout the room.. if the ceiling isn't fully trapped (absorptive) then I consider some carpeting around the perimeter.
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 06:53:30 pm »

Yes the ceiling is trapped but there are some places where it is not. The panels are placed around the ceiling edges and in the center of the room over the mix position there is a 6'x6' cloud.

The center of the rear half of the ceiling is not trapped and based on your recomendaiton I beleive I will be moving the carpet back to underneath that spot. It is a circular area rug.

I have been thinking of making some diffusor/absorbers out of 6" Ready Frames with 4" of 703 in back behind poly skylines comming out the front for teh rear wall. Was also looking at some of the shallower Q'fusors and metro fusors for the side walls as Ethan made the statement that within 6' the depth shouldn't be more than 3".  

My biggest concerns are the sides toward the front and ceiling. I wanted to add difusion to above the mix position and side walls.Is this a bad idea or would skylines work?

I get that the rear wall needs difusion but based on what you're saying about return times would implimenting 2D into the picture help if it is at an early reflection point, say above the mix position or to the side of the mix position?  

I am going to mock up a google sketch of the room and my plan. See what you and others think.

Thanks-Brett



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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 03:38:10 am »

here is the layout. The opening that raps around the side of the left and rear walls is open to a living room below that has 14' ceilings. The top of the opening is flush with the ceiling of that room. Anywhere other areas for diffusion? Also, I only have 12 panels so far. The end result will be more like 26 with the ceiling behind the beam and the ceiling of the staircase opening in the rear being completely stuffed with insulation. May even build a thick absorber where the skylines are placed and have the skylines on the face. But I wanted you to see the room floor plan before I do anything else. Thanks-Brett
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 04:23:37 pm »

After a quick look, first thing that comes to mind is: you should move the traps that are directly behind your speakers and place them in the back of the room. They do little where they are now.

Diffusors: make sure the density of the material you use is high enough. A figure higher than .32 is what I would recommend.

Will have a longer look a bit later...
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Thomas Jouanjean
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2009, 01:46:21 am »

sorry Thomas, you lost me on the .32 thing.Do the RPG poly Skylines qualify? Also the panels at the front are in my window and sorta acting as blinds. I can move them and get a curtain. The one in the middle between the speakers did clean things up. There were some high frequencies reflecting back at me and smearing things.
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2009, 06:15:14 am »

These are the Absorption coefficients for the skyline.

Hz   Absorption Coefficient
125   0.00
160   0.10
200   0.14
250   0.34
315   0.46
400   0.31
500   0.28
630   0.28
800   0.33
1000   0.29
1250   0.22
1600   0.21
2000   0.19
2500   0.18
3150   0.15
4000   0.16
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 08:36:01 am »

brett wrote on Thu, 30 July 2009 00:46

sorry Thomas, you lost me on the .32 thing.Do the RPG poly Skylines qualify? Also the panels at the front are in my window and sorta acting as blinds. I can move them and get a curtain. The one in the middle between the speakers did clean things up. There were some high frequencies reflecting back at me and smearing things.


Sorry! I should've been a bit clearer.

Here is what I'm talking about:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-density-d_40.html
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Thomas Jouanjean
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 04:59:44 pm »

Got it! not absorbtion coeficient, but rather kilo per cubic meter density. Makes more sense. I am not building these. I am buying Skylines from RPG and will be placing them on the front of the 2x4 panels I make. By using the 6" thick ready frames and 4" of rockwool with the skylines tube tac'd to the front of the minerial wool. Can I place these to the sides of me as well or should I just place them on rear wall and to the side walls behind the listening position? Some direction on placement would be apreciated.
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2009, 06:40:48 am »

Place them on the backwall, careful with the Haas time constraint. Make sure it is outside or at the limits of the Haas effect.
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Thomas Jouanjean
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2009, 04:33:12 pm »

Thanks Thomas,

Was going to build out a frame where I put the skylines in the 3D diagrapm I posted. and fill it with rock wool. It would be like the line of the face of the cabinet in the left rear corner would continue to the corner in the railing by the opening to the stairs. It would be a very effective rear wall absorber in conjunction with the panels placed at the corners of all those wall and ceiling points in the rear. This would however bring the skylines forward a couple of feet closer to my ears about 7'.

Other option is to place a low profile love seat or chair there loaded with mineral wool through out the empty frame spaces and leave the skylines where they are about 9' from my ears and above that make a soffit absorber that runs the rear wall width.
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mike shelton

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 03:16:59 pm »

Am I nuts here, but I think the best solution would be to rotate the room 90 degrees so that the speakers were up against the long wall and fired out into the other room. Then there wouldn't be any issue wis rear wall reflections.

then you could get a much closer symmetry between the left and right walls. As drawn there is no right wall, correct?
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brett

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Re: wood diffusers in mastering and mixing rooms
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 07:11:42 pm »

mike shelton wrote on Tue, 11 August 2009 20:16

Am I nuts here, but I think the best solution would be to rotate the room 90 degrees so that the speakers were up against the long wall and fired out into the other room. Then there wouldn't be any issue wis rear wall reflections.

then you could get a much closer symmetry between the left and right walls. As drawn there is no right wall, correct?


Not sure if you are assuming the long wall is an open wall. It is only open for the purpose of a cut-away diagram. The right wall is solid. the left wall has the same opening the rear wall has and also would still have the cabinet in the corner. Also, I have enough isolation where I am now that neighbors do not complain. I actually had the speakers on railing at the oosite end in the opening and they hit pretty hard on the low end. But when I go pumping sound into the living room like that the neighbors complained. They also complain when the TV in that room is too loud, but never have complained about me working on music at 3am where I have the speakers now.  
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