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Author Topic: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?  (Read 15296 times)

Jim Williams

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2009, 11:36:39 AM »

volki wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 05:45

Jim, regarding your 2 inch wire replacement in condenser mic's -- that would have to be between capsule and fet/tube input? So you're talking about the dielectric properties of the cable's insulation, with the capacitive parts formed by the wire and the metal surroundings that the cable runs through?
Regards


Yes and yes. The Kimber uses 10,000 volt high purity teflon insulation. It's drawn over the wire creating a vacuum seal to keep oxygen out. I'm careful to route it away from metal surfaces. Most mics have a route allowing that. All flux and oils are removed and a non-conformal polystyrene coating is applied afterwards. Some customers after hearing silver wire request it on other mics. They hear the difference and are willing to pay for it.
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Jim Williams
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EP

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2009, 01:29:09 PM »

Would it be safe to say that its mostly the method of construction of this wire and not the silver content (vs copper) that allows the improvements then?

Erik
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Andy Peters

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2009, 01:33:36 AM »

JGreenslade wrote on Mon, 01 June 2009 06:11

The World's Best USB Cable, Made Specifically for Audio!

I kid not...


And if it's not built according to the USB spec, it's not a USB cable.

Such baloney.

-a
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mukul

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2009, 02:07:48 AM »

Jim Williams wrote on Tue, 02 June 2009 21:06


... The Kimber uses 10,000 volt high purity teflon insulation. It's drawn over the wire creating a vacuum seal to keep oxygen out.

...



Jim,

I have to say this - many people (even cable manufacturers) are not specific which Teflon they are referring to.  DuPont uses Teflon brand name for its PTFE (Poly Tetra Fluoro Ethylene), for FEP (Fluorinated Ethylene Propylene), as well as for PFA (Per Fluoro Alcoxy).  The 3 thermo-plastics have very different dielectric properties, processing methods and applications.  For most audio signal purposes, I would think PTFE is the best (low dielectric constant, low dissipation factor, very high volume & surface resistivities), even though FEP is sometimes used.

If "10,000 volt teflon insulation" refers to its break-down voltage (BDV), yes, even 0.010" (0.25 mm) radial wall thickness of PTFE insulation will have BDV in excess of 10,000 volts, less or more depending on insulation thickness.  But, is BDV of much relevance in this discussion?

As regards keeping oxygen out when processing insulation over the wire, every well-made wire should be so.  Something I have said before in another thread, in my 23 years' experience of putting PTFE insulation over Silver Plated copper conductors, I have never come across tarnished silver plating when I strip the insulation years, even decades, later.

Regards.

Mukul
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bruno putzeys

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2009, 05:54:33 AM »

It's amazing the sort of subject that gets people posting...

@Jim, you're talking about condenser mic wiring but no mention of insulation resistance. Any chance that this, and not all that oxygen talk might be important?

In my younger days I used to scavenge parts from military equipment from the 50's that had lain exposed to the elements for over two decades. The silver plating under the insulation (both FEP and PTFE) was still absolutely pristine. So I don't think Kimber has invented hot water. He might've invented bottled hot water though, for all I know. I mean, unshielded unbalanced "interconnects", "Audiophile USB cable"...
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volki

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2009, 08:47:39 AM »

while we're at it...

@Jim: What would interest me is the difference of overall capacitance of capsule plus wire - meaning, capsule + standard wire vs. capsule + teflon/silver wire. Have you ever performed such measurement in situ?
Measuring just the cable wouldn't yield precise results, since the mere placement of the cable / proximity of other metal parts may already mean a few pF change in capacitance...
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dcollins

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2009, 06:37:57 PM »

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 02:54

 He might've invented bottled hot water though, for all I know. I mean, unshielded unbalanced "interconnects", "Audiophile USB cable"...


http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_ id=46&pagestring=Signal+in+an+Audio+Cable



DC

Andy Peters

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2009, 11:47:40 PM »

dcollins wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 15:37

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 02:54

 He might've invented bottled hot water though, for all I know. I mean, unshielded unbalanced "interconnects", "Audiophile USB cable"...


 http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_ id=46&pagestring=Signal+in+an+Audio+Cable


Some problems with that ...

First, those 'scope traces don't have any scale markings, so who knows what kind of signal he's putting into his wire?

Second, he says, "In a matched propagation conductor, the signal's speed is matched to the speed of the dielectric and like the boat illustrated below, leaves little wake turbulence." The only problem here is that at audio frequencies, we don't use matched impedances -- outputs are low impedance and inputs are high impedance, a bridging condition for best voltage transfer. So while an unterminated transmission line does some really ugly things, none of it is relevant.

And the rest of his web site is typical audiophool nonsense, about cable break-in, "golden ratio constant 'Q' stranding" in cables, cable resonance, etc. All bullshit.

-a
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Andrew Hamilton

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2009, 01:15:06 AM »

Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 23:47



    http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_ id=46&pagestring=Signal+in+an+Audio+Cable

Some problems with that ...

First, those 'scope traces don't have any scale markings, so who knows what kind of signal he's putting into his wire?


Well.  It's a pulse, though we don't know the time scale.  Still,
it shouldn't matter as long as the only thing that changed between scopings was the interconnect, right? (:


Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 23:47


Second, he says, "In a matched propagation conductor, the signal's speed is matched to the speed of the dielectric and like the boat illustrated below, leaves little wake turbulence." The only problem here is that at audio frequencies, we don't use matched impedances...



    Your zeal to quash audiophoolery has you swatting at harmless flies.  We no longer use impedance matching, since no one can find good 600 Ohm interconnect anymore (;.  But even George will admit that we do use _voltage_ matching.  His video on cable resonance in rising impedance networks reveals this much...

    Nevertheless, it reads to me as if the "matching" Cardas is referring to (whether or not he deserves ridicule for it) is the matching between the speed of the parallel capacitance to ground (allowed by the dielectric) and the speed of serial propagation of the signal (one electron to another) along the conductor .  Both will always be slower than Einstein's "c."   When the parallel path severely lags the direct (serial) path, you get the pictured ringing (or "turbulence").  This is how it reads to me.  This is why he writes about the "matched propagation conductor."   This is different from a "matched propagation network."

Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 23:47


And the rest of his web site is typical audiophool nonsense, about cable break-in, "golden ratio constant 'Q' stranding" in cables, cable resonance, etc. All bullshit.



Have you tried the Golden cuboid speaker position formula?  It might read like hoodoo, but it seems to work, nicely.   At least it's based on math, standing wave theory, and the time-honored equi-lateral triangle monitor/listener configuration.  

Oh, and I thought stranding was a good thing for speaker cable...







Andrew
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JGreenslade

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2009, 07:42:29 AM »

dcollins wrote on Mon, 01 June 2009 22:48

JGreenslade wrote on Mon, 01 June 2009 06:11

The World's Best USB Cable, Made Specifically for Audio!

I kid not...



Don't ridicule just because you can't hear the difference.

Where is the audiophile USB receiver chip set?


DC


I'll have you know I can hear a difference. I can even give an objective appraisal of how it sounds...








...ker-ching!



Justin
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JGreenslade

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2009, 07:47:00 AM »

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 10:54

It's amazing the sort of subject that gets people posting...

@Jim, you're talking about condenser mic wiring but no mention of insulation resistance. Any chance that this, and not all that oxygen talk might be important?

In my younger days I used to scavenge parts from military equipment from the 50's that had lain exposed to the elements for over two decades. The silver plating under the insulation (both FEP and PTFE) was still absolutely pristine. So I don't think Kimber has invented hot water. He might've invented bottled hot water though, for all I know. I mean, unshielded unbalanced "interconnects", "Audiophile USB cable"...


His partners here in the UK certainly have managed to 'invent' some interest amongst the Advertising Standards Authority with regards to how Kimber products are promoted:   http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177. htm

(we've covered the above link before - just thought I'd post it here for anyone unaware)

Justin
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Jim Williams

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2009, 10:38:01 AM »

volki wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 05:47

while we're at it...

@Jim: What would interest me is the difference of overall capacitance of capsule plus wire - meaning, capsule + standard wire vs. capsule + teflon/silver wire. Have you ever performed such measurement in situ?
Measuring just the cable wouldn't yield precise results, since the mere placement of the cable / proximity of other metal parts may already mean a few pF change in capacitance...


If the wire is dressed away from metal surfaces and to other wires, wire capacitance is extremely low. I couldn't measure that without specialized test rigs as it would probably be 1 pf or less added capacitance = not important. It also does not address the existing capacitance generated by the original teflon/copper wire. Insulation resistance is as good as it gets with PTFE teflon. FEP teflon is not as good and is found in less expensive cable. In this application, the wire is more important than the insulation.
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Jim Williams
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2009, 12:39:49 PM »

Jim Williams wrote on Thu, 04 June 2009 09:38

volki wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 05:47

while we're at it...

@Jim: What would interest me is the difference of overall capacitance of capsule plus wire - meaning, capsule + standard wire vs. capsule + teflon/silver wire. Have you ever performed such measurement in situ?
Measuring just the cable wouldn't yield precise results, since the mere placement of the cable / proximity of other metal parts may already mean a few pF change in capacitance...


If the wire is dressed away from metal surfaces and to other wires, wire capacitance is extremely low. I couldn't measure that without specialized test rigs as it would probably be 1 pf or less added capacitance = not important. It also does not address the existing capacitance generated by the original teflon/copper wire. Insulation resistance is as good as it gets with PTFE teflon. FEP teflon is not as good and is found in less expensive cable. In this application, the wire is more important than the insulation.


You state that it isn't capacitance. Presumably this wire is located in a relatively high impedance circuit node where currents should be small so wire conductivity should likewise have small effect.

If it isn't capacitance, or some charge related interaction with the wire's insulation, what do you think the mechanism is for your reported sonic difference?

Is the wire somehow part of the mechanical system so physical properties of the wire might matter?

Just curious.

JR
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David Bock

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2009, 03:15:04 PM »

Quote:

Is the wire somehow part of the mechanical system so physical properties of the wire might matter?

yes. there are commercial examples of this all around. the Communist CMV mics share an M7 capsule with Neumann counterparts and sound nothing alike. I'm citing this as a gross example, and yes, I know the amplifiers are different etc so don't waste any words criticizing that but the mechanical systems at play in an LDC are critical, wire included. I've done the research.

bruno putzeys

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Re: Wire , Can you really hear the difference?
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2009, 05:08:15 PM »

Interesting suggestion, dbock. @Jim: were you referring to center fed capsules too?
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