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Author Topic: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?  (Read 15659 times)

antonio

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 09:27:05 am »

franman wrote on Sat, 09 May 2009 00:12

 you really need to avoid early reflection back to the listening position shorter than 19-22msec (open for discussion) and louder the -15 compared to direct signal (also open for discussion)...



Recently I read an interview of  Geroge Massemburg   ( http://audioproforum.com/index.php?module=Pagesetter&fun c=viewpub&tid=11&pid=3  ).
He explains that in his  studio C at BlackBird Studios  reflections are -40 dB louder than direct sound. He says that it’s like an anechoic chamber but it doesn’t  sound like that.
This concept is quite new.  For shure the idea of listening without having an ambient between you and the speaker is interesting  and it does make sense. I don’t know how much is effective.
Cold be this an improvement  of  the concept of RFZ?
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 11:30:21 am »

AFAIC it's not anechoic-like for sure: decay in the room exists, although not the same type as in a more "classical" CR, and floor is of course reflective.

I remember someone using the word "Ambechoic" to describe the room (RPG engineer I think). It is an excellent way of describing it.  

It is in many ways a RFZ room, based a new way to implement the concept.

One important point: I suspect the very deep diffusors he uses (that go really low, like 100Hz (?) for the walls and 60Hz (?) for the ceiling IIRC)  actually do mechanically absorb a LOT of energy in the LF, and a very healthy amount in the MF and HF range. So while they are primarily diffusors, they are certainly used as absorbers too.

They obviously bring a new concept on the table. It sure is amazing.

But unfortunaytely, for 99,99% of the studios out there this is not a viable option/model. Technically and cost wise. And this is clearely very far away from the average living room.

As an extreme design, it stresses the importance of proper diffusion in a room.

I hope I get to visit it at one point Smile
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Thomas Jouanjean
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J.F.Oros

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2009, 04:23:08 pm »

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 18:30

I remember someone using the word "Ambechoic" to describe the room (RPG engineer I think). It is an excellent way of describing it.
Yeah, I think that was Peter D'Antonio from RPG, who was actually involved in the design of that room.

A few thoughts about this studio you can find in this discussion, from Eric Desart who had the pleasure to visit the room and talk to mr. Massenburg about it.

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?p=36850#36850

(PS : please disregard the whole offtopic messages between me, Bert and the others there  Very Happy)
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Steve Hudson

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2009, 04:08:10 pm »

I had the privilege of meeting George and listening to a variety of music in his room at Blackbird a few summers ago and it sounds unlike any space I've ever been in. Extraordinary integration of the room and the monitors - the imaging across 360 degrees is scary good. If the goal of an RFZ-type room is to minimize the interaction of the room with the sound sources, Mr. Massenburg's room succeeds. Listening to the 5.1 mix of Dark Side of the Moon was one of the most exciting audio experiences I've ever had.
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L_Tofastrud

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 01:50:28 pm »

antonio wrote on Sat, 09 May 2009 05:44

Francis  this are very interesting point of discussion especially if it’s possible to connect this numbers to what happens from a listening point of view.


Read my PDF on reflections at "Home
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L_Tofastrud

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2009, 02:29:01 pm »

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 09:30

One important point: I suspect the very deep diffusors he uses (that go really low, like 100Hz (?) for the walls and 60Hz (?) for the ceiling IIRC)  actually do mechanically absorb a LOT of energy in the LF, and a very healthy amount in the MF and HF range. So while they are primarily diffusors, they are certainly used as absorbers too.

The diffusers certainly reduce the apparent energy in the room but they don't actually absorb the energy as much as redirecting it. Instead of normal "mirror reflections" the incoming sound is spread out in all other directions (hemisphere) an even though the total energy is the same, the energy that reaches the listener is smeared out in time.

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 09:30


They obviously bring a new concept on the table. It sure is amazing.

I designed a recording room in Norway (mid 90's) ago that had diffusers all over. They were regular 1-D type of diffusers but the room definetly had that feeling where it is impossible to determine its size from listening to it. The studio was used for voice-overs and vocals for music and the engineer claimed it was much easier to add reverb to the recordings than what he was used to. Most people can imagine what the sound of a hand clap is in an untreated and a heavily treated room: this diffused room sounded completely different - it had a certain punch that I can only contribute to the incredibly dense return. I used to have TEF ETC measurements of this room but I can't find them now. The "early refelction" was a huge number of densely spaced returns and the "peak return" was rounded off.

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 09:30


But unfortunaytely, for 99,99% of the studios out there this is not a viable option/model. Technically and cost wise. And this is clearely very far away from the average living room.

I agree with the technical/cost issues. I'm not worried about it being different than living rooms though: if the engineer has control it's all good.

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 09:30


As an extreme design, it stresses the importance of proper diffusion in a room.

It is unfortunate that it is costly and space consuming... Real diffusion should not be underestimated as a treatment tool.

Lars Tofastrud
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: Optimal RT60 for a mastering room?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2009, 01:29:03 pm »

L_Tofastrud wrote on Mon, 25 May 2009 13:29

The diffusers certainly reduce the apparent energy in the room but they don't actually absorb the energy as much as redirecting it. Instead of normal "mirror reflections" the incoming sound is spread out in all other directions (hemisphere) an even though the total energy is the same, the energy that reaches the listener is smeared out in time.


Ok, what you describe is how a diffusor works. I still "suspect" (so I'm not stating a fact but just a thought) that in GM's room there is mechanical absorption form the diffusors in the LF range. Of course it would be hard to determine the exact amount... But I am enclined to believe there is a very healthy amount of it. Those pieces of wood are rather long, I would expect a good amount of them to start vibrating on their loose side and interact with their stiff side (dampening + transfer etc).


L_Tofastrud wrote on Mon, 25 May 2009 13:29

I designed a recording room in Norway (mid 90's) ago that had diffusers all over. They were regular 1-D type of diffusers but the room definetly had that feeling where it is impossible to determine its size from listening to it. The studio was used for voice-overs and vocals for music and the engineer claimed it was much easier to add reverb to the recordings than what he was used to. Most people can imagine what the sound of a hand clap is in an untreated and a heavily treated room: this diffused room sounded completely different - it had a certain punch that I can only contribute to the incredibly dense return. I used to have TEF ETC measurements of this room but I can't find them now. The "early refelction" was a huge number of densely spaced returns and the "peak return" was rounded off.


I would like to visit it next time I'm in Norway! I am very cautious with overusing 1-D diffusors though. I've played with heavy Diffusion in a LR not too long ago with very good results, but what you mention seems like a lot to me... This LR I did works very well, but I would not add more diffusion in there.

L_Tofastrud wrote on Mon, 25 May 2009 13:29

I agree with the technical/cost issues. I'm not worried about it being different than living rooms though: if the engineer has control it's all good.


Agreed, but the original poster was asking Smile

L_Tofastrud wrote on Mon, 25 May 2009 13:29

It is unfortunate that it is costly and space consuming... Real diffusion should not be underestimated as a treatment tool.


+1

(Edit: fixed spelling)

index.php/fa/12417/0/
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Thomas Jouanjean
Northward Acoustics - Engineering and Designs
http://www.northwardacoustics.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Northward-Acoustics/1062876633 71

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