R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Down

Author Topic: IMP21 discussion  (Read 13093 times)

grantis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2009, 05:49:48 pm »

As far as the kick drum is concerned...I rarely have the patience to deal with tone/level changes in a live tracked kick drum, even in songs like this where the drums sound good.  I manually replace every hit and it takes 10 min.  No phase issues, no flams, no mis-triggers.  I gave up on sound replacer looong ago because it was taking 4x longer to fix its mistakes than just doing it manually.

That said...I did the same on this mix and was unhappy with just the kick sample, so I blended it with the original kick-in mic which added a bit of dynamics back into the drum while maintaining a consistent pounding *thud* that could break through the wall of guitars.

Snare drum=the same

I agree the most important aspect of any mix...save for instrumental music...is the lead vocal.  I battled and battled with this vocal and appreciate all the feedback thus far.  

I still have trouble properly implementing a de-esser and always think I've de-essed too much so I inevitably back off until I'm *happy*.  Then....come to find out....it didn't work.  Rick's vocal treatment was awesome and I applaud him for sharing his treatment technique.  WELL DONE RICK!

I do have to ask this though....did anybody use the bass DI?  I used it in my mix with a PSA-1 blended with the amp mic and my bass tone fell short....




Logged
Grant Craig
Nuovo Music (Me)
Skiddco Music (Where I work)
Work History (Well, some of it anyway)

iCombs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2009, 05:54:49 pm »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 14:44

iCombs wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 00:31



Lemme try to make a little sense of this: If you had to rank the basic elements of this mix (the basic elements being drumx, bass, guitars, lead vocal, harmony vocal, backing vocals) in order of importance, how would that list shake down?  
.


1.  lead vocal
2.  lead vocal
3.  lead vocal






Couldn't agree more with this.

So at that point...nothing in the mix really "matters" past that, right?  I mean...like Drew was saying...what does the rest of it matter so long as you can hear it and it's not distracting you from the most important aspect of the mix (and it doesn't sound BAD in an absolute sense (unless that's necessary))?

I guess my tendency with a mix built around vocals is to really leave it to rhythm section to carry the song as that's easier (for me) to keep out of the way of the vocals without having to crucify them sonically.

I remember once being told to start mix balances with the center elements first...starting with kick, bass, and vocals.  Those things really do define the basic rhythm, chord structure, and melody of the song.  From there, start rolling in the "other stuff."  I generally start with anything else that will be in the center (like snare)...balance out the rest of the drumkit and start bringing in guitars and the rest of the band.  Then...if things start fighting the vocal and you're happy with the way the vocal sits against the middle, you know where to start attacking to mitigate any clashes.

I will get to more critiques, I promise...I've been up to my ass in my TV mixing gig but I should be finishing that in the next day or so so I can get back into it.
Logged
Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
----------------------
"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"

iCombs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2009, 06:03:46 pm »

grantis wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 16:49

As far as the kick drum is concerned...I rarely have the patience to deal with tone/level changes in a live tracked kick drum, even in songs like this where the drums sound good.  I manually replace every hit and it takes 10 min.  No phase issues, no flams, no mis-triggers.  I gave up on sound replacer looong ago because it was taking 4x longer to fix its mistakes than just doing it manually.

That said...I did the same on this mix and was unhappy with just the kick sample, so I blended it with the original kick-in mic which added a bit of dynamics back into the drum while maintaining a consistent pounding *thud* that could break through the wall of guitars.

Snare drum=the same

I agree the most important aspect of any mix...save for instrumental music...is the lead vocal.  I battled and battled with this vocal and appreciate all the feedback thus far.  

I still have trouble properly implementing a de-esser and always think I've de-essed too much so I inevitably back off until I'm *happy*.  Then....come to find out....it didn't work.  Rick's vocal treatment was awesome and I applaud him for sharing his treatment technique.  WELL DONE RICK!

I do have to ask this though....did anybody use the bass DI?  I used it in my mix with a PSA-1 blended with the amp mic and my bass tone fell short....







I did.  Though I used a phase rotator plugin to really get the amp and DI to match up well.  Thought it was a little sizzly, but nothing that an LPF didn't take care of.
Logged
Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
----------------------
"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"

grantis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2009, 11:01:19 pm »

What plugin did you use for phase rotation?


Logged
Grant Craig
Nuovo Music (Me)
Skiddco Music (Where I work)
Work History (Well, some of it anyway)

Gio

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2009, 11:57:04 pm »

Hey All,

I feel like I'm late to the party, as I meant to do this much sooner. There's been a good bit of discussion going on already.... hope to jump in soon.

FWIW, here are my comments. I'm not too keen on criticizing the work of others, so my comments will be based on listening in the same environment I mixed in. Hopefully referencing these various mixes and comments will help me resolve some room issues I am trying to solve in this home space I set up. Skill issues....... that's another story!  Razz

Here goes.....

Podgorny
I liked the BV placement, and gtrs, though I'm thrown by the kick/sn samples. A bit obvious. More bass?

J.Hall
I see J. has already given his reasons for what he did, so nuff said. I did think the toms were panned a bit wide and a tad loud(?), and kick/sn a bit detached. Vox seem tucked in.

Rankus
I like the energy, and can hear everything nicely. Snare could use some snap, I thought. Nice. ( I missed the gtr parts)

DCombs
I thought the kick was a bit clicky, and a touch loud. The cymbals are distracting me, and the toms again a bit wide. GTRs could come up. Overall sounds a bit clamped or tight or something. I like where you were going, tho.

Grantis
I felt the kick to be a little loud and separate, and the snare "boingy"? Vox needed some love, and the BV's could have come up. A bit more clarity in general.

Ylab
A bit thick overall, I thought.  The kit doesn't gel for me. The vox could come up, but are a bit sibilant.

Eric H.
GTRs seem uneven at times. Snare could use some life. Nice , clear vox.

Nizzle
Vox seem dry and detached. Snare sticks out in a way. GTRs seem clear and cloudy at the same time, sort of.

BoedoConstrictor
Heavy on the kick, and lo end in general.Snare sounds choked. Other than that, pretty even. BVs pretty nice.

Fiasco
The vocal treatment could use help. Thin and sibilant. It all sounds tight, but doesn't gel somehow. Snare needs to blend more?

CIlett
Sucks when that happens!! It's hard to comment given the circumstances.....

h2o
Seems a bit murky in general. Kick is loud, and snare sticks out. I miss some gtr parts and BVs. Vox seem dry and squished. GTRs could be louder.

iCombs
More GTR please! Kick sticks out. Snare could use some life. Vox are on top too much, IMO.

graham
Drums are a bit far away, ( room mics!) Vox FX need some finessing. I think leaning on the drum room takes away some energy overall.

IMDRecording  
Pretty grungy, but as you said, "Where are the VOX?" Also, some low cut on the toms would help. The verb on the vox is a bit much, to me.

Gio

Mine....

Mono? Nah. OHs are hard L-R. Room too. I do have main GTRs 1-2 up the middle. Those could come down a hair(?),and the doubles hard L-R could come up. GTRs could growl some more..... I feel I missed some cool GTR parts in this mix, with this choice of panning ..... I've just always hated GTRs hard L-R, and nothin up the middle. Yep, kick can be louder, or at least have some more lo end energy. Toms up too?. Bass could be more defined. LV does seem louder than most other mixes, but I like being able to hear them. Wrangle them in more. I was a bit shy w/the BVs, too, in spots. Could be rounder overall.

Did I miss anyone?

Thanks again to J. and Kyle, for making this possible. IMP does indeed ROCK!
Logged
Giovanni Fusco

On Staff Here

My Place

Press record. Enjoy!

iCombs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2009, 12:32:39 am »

grantis wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 22:01

What plugin did you use for phase rotation?


The stock "phase" plugin that comes with Reaper.  Also used it to line up kick in/out, snare top/bottom, and the aggregate kick and snare against the overheads.  It's a little surprising what that does to a kit.
Logged
Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
----------------------
"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"

j.hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3787
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2009, 02:09:07 pm »

iCombs wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 16:54



So at that point...nothing in the mix really "matters" past that, right?  



well, it does matter.  but when dealing with the "common public" the lead vocal has to be there.  past that it's all subjective.  but it does matter.  if it didn't, guys like CLA wouldn't exist in this profession.

and for the record, i can get a sample, phase accurate, placed in about 10 minutes.

not a competition, just saying, it doesn't take that long, or shouldn't at least.
Logged

iCombs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2009, 03:14:22 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 13:09

iCombs wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 16:54



So at that point...nothing in the mix really "matters" past that, right?  



well, it does matter.  but when dealing with the "common public" the lead vocal has to be there.  past that it's all subjective.  but it does matter.  if it didn't, guys like CLA wouldn't exist in this profession.

and for the record, i can get a sample, phase accurate, placed in about 10 minutes.

not a competition, just saying, it doesn't take that long, or shouldn't at least.


I'm super interested...part of it might be my current software's audtomatic transient detection not being super hot...part of it might be some of drumagog's quirks...but since I do it all manually hit by hit, it takes a damn eternity.

Mind thumbnailing your process?
Logged
Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
----------------------
"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"

grantis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2009, 06:22:10 pm »

Ian,
Are you working in Pro Tools?
Logged
Grant Craig
Nuovo Music (Me)
Skiddco Music (Where I work)
Work History (Well, some of it anyway)

Podgorny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1491
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2009, 08:06:23 pm »

Reaper.
Logged
"Nobody cares what the impedance is; all they care about is when you can walk into the room, set up a mic, turn the knobs, hit record, and make everybody go 'wow.'"

grantis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1407
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2009, 08:55:31 pm »

My apologies...i missed that....
Logged
Grant Craig
Nuovo Music (Me)
Skiddco Music (Where I work)
Work History (Well, some of it anyway)

j.hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3787
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2009, 10:38:15 pm »

iCombs wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 14:14

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 13:09

iCombs wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 16:54



So at that point...nothing in the mix really "matters" past that, right?  



well, it does matter.  but when dealing with the "common public" the lead vocal has to be there.  past that it's all subjective.  but it does matter.  if it didn't, guys like CLA wouldn't exist in this profession.

and for the record, i can get a sample, phase accurate, placed in about 10 minutes.

not a competition, just saying, it doesn't take that long, or shouldn't at least.


I'm super interested...part of it might be my current software's audtomatic transient detection not being super hot...part of it might be some of drumagog's quirks...but since I do it all manually hit by hit, it takes a damn eternity.

Mind thumbnailing your process?


i use apptriga.  very similar to drumaggog.  i buss it to another track.  record it in (goes real time, but whatever)

from there, i zoom way in and tab to transient moving the hits that misfired.  i do it as one big move each time so when i'm done with the song i know everything is right.  if you separate each hit you might miss one, or drag something into about region.

kick phase doesn't isn't nearly as crucial as the snare.  this is of course considering the fact that i never keep the original kick if i place a sample.  if you keep it, then phase is crucial there too.
Logged

Podgorny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1491
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2009, 10:49:03 pm »

I like aptrigga.  When I'm in a hurry, or feeling lazy, I'll use it.
But if I care, I'd rather hand place the samples.  One at a time.

Honestly, it's not that Aptrigga does a bad job.  With the filtering and the dynamics controls, it probably does an even better job of replacement than doing it manually.

But since I'm usually blending samples, I'd rather make sure they are PERFECTLY in phase.  Even the kick.
Logged
"Nobody cares what the impedance is; all they care about is when you can walk into the room, set up a mic, turn the knobs, hit record, and make everybody go 'wow.'"

marcel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1257
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2009, 11:32:12 pm »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 19:38

...the fact that i never keep the original kick if i place a sample.

Curious as to why this is, j?  Since you said 'never'...
Logged
Best, Marcel

iCombs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: IMP21 discussion
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2009, 01:23:43 am »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 21:38

iCombs wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 14:14

j.hall wrote on Wed, 20 May 2009 13:09

iCombs wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 16:54



So at that point...nothing in the mix really "matters" past that, right?  



well, it does matter.  but when dealing with the "common public" the lead vocal has to be there.  past that it's all subjective.  but it does matter.  if it didn't, guys like CLA wouldn't exist in this profession.

and for the record, i can get a sample, phase accurate, placed in about 10 minutes.

not a competition, just saying, it doesn't take that long, or shouldn't at least.


I'm super interested...part of it might be my current software's audtomatic transient detection not being super hot...part of it might be some of drumagog's quirks...but since I do it all manually hit by hit, it takes a damn eternity.

Mind thumbnailing your process?


i use apptriga.  very similar to drumaggog.  i buss it to another track.  record it in (goes real time, but whatever)

from there, i zoom way in and tab to transient moving the hits that misfired.  i do it as one big move each time so when i'm done with the song i know everything is right.  if you separate each hit you might miss one, or drag something into about region.

kick phase doesn't isn't nearly as crucial as the snare.  this is of course considering the fact that i never keep the original kick if i place a sample.  if you keep it, then phase is crucial there too.



Do you do any strip silence on the kick track that you send to aptrigga?  I see how you're doing it, but I find that if I cut up a trigger track, then drumagog does its job way better as far as phase is concerned and once I print the trigger track it's right once I get the first transient lined up.  

Granted...the last couple projects I did heavy sample replacement on were both projects with LOTS of double bass work, so I was a busy boy cutting up those 16th notes at 190+.  NOT FUN WORK.

Which...come to think of it...is a big deal that perhaps we haven't made a big enough deal about...I had FUN doing all the goony automation on this track...the drum subgroup buss had like 6 or 7 automation envelopes just for the goony shit...for example...on the snare only fills, I wanted the snare to really get smashed, so I automated the drum buss threshold and makeup so it went from hitting the subgroup at no more than 3-4 dB to cranking it for up to 12.  Did fun things to the room sound, too.  I also automated the drum verb return volume so the drums could kinda change in size with the sections of the song.  And while I was doing it, I was laughing to myself and smiling and having a grand old time...and isn't that why we do what we do?  Isn't that sort of fun the impetus for really breakthrough work?  When you have a vision and achieving it doesn't feel like a whole lot of work and you just start doing it by gut feel and when you come back the next day it doesn't suck...haven't you just achieved perhaps a small bit of transcendence?  Isn't that one of the things we all strive for?

[/rant]

Anyways...I'll have to play with my triggering workflow...it's clunky as hell the way it sits now and I know there's a better way.
Logged
Ian Combs
Producer/Engineer
Lightspeed Group, Inc.
----------------------
"Mista apareeatah... can I have maar beass at all frequencies?"
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Up