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Author Topic: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?  (Read 44702 times)

David Satz

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2004, 06:15:08 PM »

Hello, Volker--One of your questions came in response to something that I had posted, so let me try to explain it a little better. To form a balanced output, two signal leads must have the same impedance with respect to ground as each other; the signal then consists of the varying difference in potential between those two conductors. An output transformer in a microphone naturally creates this condition as long as neither output lead is shorted to ground (i.e. for an unbalanced connection).

But it isn't necessary for both leads in a balanced output circuit to be actively driven. An output circuit need not maintain symmetrical signal voltages with respect to ground in the two leads in order to be a balanced circuit. Any voltage offset from ground can be present on both leads in the same polarity; it may be an AC and/or a DC voltage. Since any such offset is present in equal amounts in the two leads, it occurs in "common mode" and is removed by the balanced input circuit to which the composite signal is connected.

Thus as a cost-saving measure, one can drive just one of the two output leads in a circuit, and connect the other lead to ground through an impedance network (usually quite a simple one) which matches the source impedance of the actively driven lead. This creates a balanced signal in which there is, in effect, a common-mode offset equal to one-half the signal voltage at all times. But it is truly a balanced signal, and a balanced input can reject interference to this signal with complete effectiveness.

This type of "impedance-balanced" output circuit--that's no official term, but it's used by some manufacturers--creates a disadvantage only with one particular type of balanced input circuit:  the kind which amplifies each "leg" of the input separately, and does not compare their voltage until a later (differential) stage in the circuit. This is sometimes referred to as an "instrumentation"-type amplifier circuit. When that type of circuit is driven by an "impedance-balanced" output, its input headroom will be 6 dB lower than it would otherwise be.

However, most mike preamps have a differential stage right at the input, whether via an input transformer or an active balanced receiver circuit of some kind. Very few preamps ever have difficulty with this type of output circuit in a microphone, and it is used in many microphones including the Neumann TLM series, KM 100 series, and KM 180 series microphones.

I don't know the configuration for the Sennheiser MKH series or anything currently made by AKG, but I do know that the Schoeps CMC and CCM series microphones drive both modulation leads of their amplifier output stages actively, so that the signal is not only balanced but also symmetrical.

Is that clear?

--best regards
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volki

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2004, 05:12:12 AM »

David Satz wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 00:15


Therefore, as a cost-saving measure, it is entirely possible to drive just one of the two output leads in a circuit, and connect the other lead to ground through an impedance network (usually quite a simple one) which matches the source impedance of the actively driven lead. This creates a balanced signal in which there is, in effect, a common-mode offset equal to one-half the signal voltage at all times. But it is truly a balanced signal, and a balanced input can reject interference to this signal with complete effectiveness.


i see. - do you get worse noise figures using this method?

Quote:

(...) instrumentation amplifier (...)

i have some cadac pre's (5183 input modules), which have 4 transistors in parallel on each lead. the outputs of them is then compared by the following op-amp NE5533. is that a circuit which falls into this category?

Quote:

I don't know the configuration for the Sennheiser MKH series or anything currently made by AKG, but I do know that the Schoeps CMC and CCM series microphones all drive both modulation leads of their amplifier output stages actively, so that the signal is not only balanced but also symmetrical.


the schematic of the C414TL looks like an impedance balanced one to me then (see att.). the c451 has a xformer, so does the solidtube.
(btw, the TL doesn't seem to be substantially cheaper than the ULS, although a xformer is one of the most expensive parts...?)

does anybody know about other brands, like dpa, earthworks, the active royers, etc.?

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Volker Meitz

Peter Simonsen

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2004, 06:56:15 AM »

[quote title=dbock wrote on Tue, 13 July 2004 17:30]
Quote:

 In terms of real accuracy, I'm leaning towards the xfmr, since the combination of cumulative impeadance buildups in xfmrless tends to bunch up in the upper mids, the better xfmrs don't. I'm not saying xfmrless CAN'T do it, I just haven't seen or heard it do it yet. reggards,D.Bock


D.Bock,

Would you be so kind and explain the  "combination of cumulative impeadance buildups in xfmrless" to me..?? Im not sure I have heard about this before, but it seams to me that it might be something that Id like to learn more about.

Are there any papers (AES, or something else) you can point me to..?? regarding this..???

Thanks..

Kind regards

Peter
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volki

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2004, 07:11:12 AM »

yeah, i'd be really interested in an explanation, too.
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Volker Meitz

maarvold

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2004, 04:49:46 PM »

So, David, are you saying TLM170, KM140 and MKH40 sound edgy to you?
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Michael Aarvold
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David Satz

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2004, 09:45:15 PM »

Michael, I didn't say that the TLM 170, KM 140 or MKH 40 were "edgy" sounding. I only meant that the TLM 170 is one of the very few examples for which comparable microphones are available currently from a major manufacturer in both a transformer-equipped and a transformerless model. The U 89 is the TLM 170's transformer-equipped counterpart, having the same capsule and the same pattern choices. Both amplifiers have flat response within their respective passbands. The sound of those two microphones, while not absolutely identical under all conditions, is so close that I doubt many people could tell which one was which on a recording, if they weren't told. The change in sound due to moving the microphone two inches in any direction would eclipse the difference between the two models.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2004, 12:40:49 AM »

David Satz wrote on Sun, 18 July 2004 18:45


I think it's fair to consider transformer-equipped vs. transformerless output circuits to be a practical engineering issue rather than a religious one.


David,
Who treats transformers in mics as a religious issue?


On another note, your comparison of the TLM 170 and U89, and your remarks that these mics, one transformerless, the other with transformer, in practice sound pretty much alike, is not necessarily logical proof of the irrelevancy of transformers. In this example I would surmise that the lack of any distinction between the two is proof of the botched amp design hooked up to a gray, lifeless capsule (my very personal judgement.)

No wonder, not much distinction can be made between the two.

The crux of most comparisons between mics with identical capsule but differing processors is that not only was the transformer omitted in mics like the KM184 (vs. KM84), but the processor is so radically different, that it is impossible to lay the blame on the "edgy" sound just on the missing transformer.

Kind regards,
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German Masterworks
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David Satz

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2004, 07:33:30 AM »

Klaus, there seem to be some big gaps in the logic of discussion here. For one thing, I never said that any of the microphones we're talking about was "edgy"--someone else put that word into my mouth.

Yes, the KM 84 and KM 140/184 use the same capsule, but their rear sound inlets are different--you know, the famous change that Neumann made "in response to overwhelming customer requests"? Thus you can't properly infer whether the "processors" (as you call the amplifiers) of two different microphone types do or don't sound different, when their capsule arrangements are putting out such differing signals to begin with. You'd have to start from the same starting point, with both "processors" that you're comparing operating on the same signals. That can be done with test heads or other equivalent means of injecting an audio signal directly.

Now I have to ask: Have you actually done this yourself--comparing a KM 100 "output stage" or the body of a KM 180-series microphone with the body of a KM 83/84/85 in a circuit chain? It seems to me that anything short of that would represent the type of supposition that you ordinarily frown upon here. Or you could make the comparison between a KM 83 and either a KM 183 or 130; their capsule arrangements are really identical.

--I brought up the TLM 170 and the U 89 because they're two microphones which sound essentially the same, but one has a transformer while the other doesn't. This invalidates the general proposition that "an output transformer always makes a significant difference to the sound of a microphone." You're right, the example doesn't prove that a transformer never makes any difference to the sound of any microphone--but that's a rather different (and foolish) proposition which I never made.

To make sense, we should speak of particular transformers and their effects in particular circuits. Most of the time when people talk about transformers here, they seem to ascribe sonic characteristics to the transformers themselves ("the sound of iron"), outside the context of the circuit in which they're being used. Audio transformers are complex and highly varied components; all of their many significant characteristics all have to fit the circuit in which they're being used.
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David Bock

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2004, 05:37:46 PM »

Quote:

Would you be so kind and explain the "combination of cumulative impeadance buildups in xfmrless" to me..?? Im not sure I have heard about this before, but it seams to me that it might be something that Id like to learn more about.
Is there any papers (AES, or something else) you can point me to..?? regarding this..???

Unfortunately no AES papers. I wish this kind of thing was looked at more often. Here's the deal: Mics (the kind we're talking about here) are sensitive to reflected load impedances (what the mic is plugged into) and the cumulative effect of xfmrless ins & outs (which don't usually have a true flat impedance vs. frequency curve) can cause upper mid buildup. I find less of this w/xfmrs where the impedance vs. freq can be engineered to be more constant.
I would also mention something I forgot in my reply to the question of having real accuracy- I was speaking of outboard psu mics, not phantom powered. Phantom is......an ugly compromise,not what I think of when trying to get the ultimate in accuracy (music, not measurement).
Quote:

So, David, are you saying TLM170, KM140 and MKH40 sound edgy to you?
Despite the TLM's soft upper mid freq response, it still sounds "transistoree". Don't know the other two mics you mention. A good example of edgy would be the tlm103.
Quote:

The U 89 is the TLM 170's transformer-equipped counterpart, having the same capsule and the same pattern choices, and both amplifiers have essentially flat response within their respective passbands.
Probably not, it's a hard measurement to make and you'd probably find curves that weren't exactly flat, but within 1/2dB, but still, we can hear 1/4- 1/2dB in a mic since it gets significantly amplified further down the chain.
Quote:

On another note, your comparison of the TLM 170 and U89, and your remarks that these mics, one transformerless, the other with transformer, in practice sound pretty much alike, is not necessarily logical proof of the irrelevancy of transformers. In this example I would surmise that the lack of any distinction between the two is proof of the botched amp design hooked up to a gray, lifeless capsule (my very personal judgement.)

Exactly. Though the capsule in that mic is tecnically perfect, it hardly inspires anyone. They're also both phantom powered, so we don't really know what that k89 capsule is capable of. This debate would be better served w/capsules we like and are familiar with. Then you could make a comparison.
Regards,
David Bock

maarvold

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2004, 11:51:33 PM »

Quote:

Hello, Michael--sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I'm still not sure whether your question is directed to me or not


David (Satz, that is),

My post was written with David Bock in mind, who did reply a bit later.  Sorry, I should have used a quote and responded to it.  BTW, I generally agree with you re the sound of TLM170, although I would add that it can exhibit just a touch of 'wispy' sibilance.  
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Michael Aarvold
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Peter Simonsen

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2004, 03:43:39 AM »

[quote title=dbock wrote on Mon, 19 July 2004 22:37 true flat impedance vs. frequency curve)  Regards,
David Bock[/quote]

Soo this would be the "key words" to search for..in my interest in understanding the  "combination of cumulative impeadance buildups in xfmrless" ???

Im still a bit confused about this, but Ill try to search  for more in-dept technical information..Its rather interesting !!

Kind regards

Peter

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Plush

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2004, 02:24:59 PM »

I'll chime in and say that I reject the claim that the TLM
170 and U89 are "transitoree" sounding. Besides, Mr. Bock's response lumps three different sounding mics together. (He lumps TLM 170 , KM140 and KM184 together) Certainly, a wide group of knowledgeable engineering people might only make this comment about the cheap KM184--a shameful mistake by Neumann.

Bocks's claim that we'll never know what the K89 capsule in the TLM 170 sounds like because it is phantom powered, is unfair.
If powered from a 10 mA phantom supply the TLM170 is drawing a
lot of current on start up and then recedes to around 3-4 mAmps. The U-89 draws under 3 mAmps.

We have a bunch of great tube mics here and the U-89 and TLM-170 take their place along side them without shame. For example, we use them on soprano soloist to un brighten the sound and on scratchy string players.

Perhaps this is because I like and strive for a dark sound.
However, recordings made with U89 and TLM 170 can sound shockingly good---and, of course, there the argument ends.      
 
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Hudson Fair
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David Bock

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2004, 11:22:33 AM »

Quote:

Mr. Bock's response lumps three different sounding mics together. (He lumps TLM 170 , KM140 and KM184 together)
Please re-read my post, I mentioned that I had no knowledge of what the km184 and the mkh40 sound like, I was only talking about the tlm170.
Quote:

If powered from a 10 mA phantom supply the TLM170 is drawing a
lot of current on start up and then recedes to around 3-4 mAmps. The U-89 draws under 3 mAmps.

Current draw through p48 is not the heart and soul of a mic, just one way to quantify one aspect of it's behaviour. If you want to talk about an amplifier's ability to deliver a signal under load and describe it as 'x'mA into 'y'ohms, that's definitely a good exercise, but in you stated example, exactly what current draw is for the blocking oscillator and what's for the amplifier?
Quote:

Bocks's claim that we'll never know what the K89 capsule in the TLM 170 sounds like because it is phantom powered, is unfair.

ALL circuits have signatures. Every different type of capsule you could shove into a tlm170 body would share common traits (a pattern of sonic behaviour will emerge), same for a tube mic body. However, the tube mic's independent psu and potential for better circuitry (less size restriction)would allow us to really hear the potential of the k89 capsule, and give a meaningful comparison to other well known standards.
Quote:

We have a bunch of great tube mics here and the U-89 and TLM-170 take their place along side them without shame.
Interesting, I've not experienced that in the studios I've worked at.
Quote:

For example, we use them on soprano soloist to un brighten the sound and on scratchy string players.
Perhaps this is because I like and strive for a dark sound.
However, recordings made with U89 and TLM 170 can sound shockingly good
Which goes to the point I thought the whole thread was leading to- liking a mics performance, be it xfmr or xfmrless seems to be based on application and expectation.
regards,
David Bock

Plush

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2004, 05:53:39 PM »

Dear Mr. Bock,

As I said, I reject your arguments above.

   
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Hudson Fair
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djosephson

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Re: What sounds better: transfomers or transformerless?
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2004, 11:03:56 PM »

I think there might be a few things to add to the previous discussion about transformer versus transformerless mics. Since we make both kinds, and it took quite some years to find suitable components, maybe I should share some of the things we found out in this process. In my own recording I use both types and I think I know the causes of the various other problems that people report with each type of design. As with everything in audio transducers, you have a choice of tradeoffs to make.

Some of the most revered microphones have some of the most awful transformers, and people seem to like them just the same. I am specifically thinking of the Haufe T14/1 in the AKG C12, C24, Telefunken ELA-M 251 series, and so on. These are almost as bad as the Beyer peanut transformers at high levels and low frequencies. Like the Beyers, however, they can work just fine when you design the circuit around them correctly (which obviously has been done in a lot of equipment that people like). There are some choices that designers have used to get around the problems, that I don't think anyone in this thread has noticed.

First, the output transformer in a microphone is almost always a step-down transformer, with voltage ratios of 4:1 to 10:1. This allows the amount of power being transferred through the core, and thus the distortion at low frequencies, to be greatly reduced. The C12's T14/1 is normally wired for a 10:1 ratio. This gives 1/10 the voltage (and ten times the current) to drive the cable. This avoids a lot of problems! The transformer in the Neumann KM80 series has a 7:1 ratio. The transformer we use in the C609 is of a more modern design (amorphous tape core from Lundahl in Sweden, rather than stacked nickel or steel alloy plates) than either of these, so we can get away with a 4:1 ratio, preserving a fairly high output level. One thing to try with a transformer output mic that seems to have poor bass handling is to wire it for 50 ohm output instead of 200. This puts the output windings in parallel rather than in series and reduces the amount of work that it has to do (and the voltage output it produces). The sound is entirely different in most cases. Sorry, you can't do that with the C609, we wanted to nail the sound to a particular characteristic and that's what you get.

David Satz's comment that transformer-based mics are unable to handle high signal levels, is simply not correct. Our e22S microphone, which is our C609 body with a KA22S capsule, was designed in cooperation with Steve Albini. He's very picky about distortion and coloration, and was looking for a spot mic for drums. This is now the one mic that he uses on every session -- for drums, mostly -- and it has a transformer output. It played much better with his collection of preamps than the transformerless C606A. For what it's worth, this transformer will produce 0 dBm (0.78 volts) into a typical mic preamp at 20 Hz with about 1% THD. In the e22S that's about 142 dB SPL.

Another critical thing, that's responsible for much of the bad sound reported by people using transformerless mics with older preamps, is that the actual output impedance of transformerless mics is much lower (on the order of 20-40 ohms, versus several hundred ohms for most transformer mics). Many mic preamps are very sensitive to source impedance. Transformer-based mic preamps, particularly older ones, often have tuning components on the secondary of the transformer to make it behave properly with a given source impedance. Lowering this by a factor of 10 or so throws all those design choices out the window. Some designs even have negative feedback applied to the input transformer windings, in an effort to reduce the distortion of the whole input stage. We are used to thinking of loading in terms of output transformers, but it's the same here -- any negative feedback into the input transformer sees the mic's impedance as a load. Neumann addressed this in some of their designs by putting resistors in series with the output -- 50 ohms each side for the TLM170 for instance.

*If* you are using modern transformerless preamps that can handle very low source impedances, it's possible to get much improved distortion and phase response performance with transformerless mics. Not all transformerless mics, of course, but it is possible. But if your sound recipe includes the characteristics of a certain piece of gear, it might not play well with transformerless mics.

The effect of the mic pre on the microphone is also generally ignored. Often, the dominant impedance is the resistance of the phantom power resistors. But depending on the input circuit, the mic cam see a very different load from one preamp to the next. In transformerless mics this is generally not an issue but with transformer output mics, different loading can make a big difference.

Now as a designer and manufacturer of microphones, I run into another whole range of choices, that also get omitted from any of these discussions. I don't modify other companies' mics, we try to make the very best we can given the technology of today. Some aspects of this technology are an improvement over the old style, others are not. 40 years ago one could buy quiet tubes to use in microphones; today you can't. 30 years ago it was impossible to get quiet, linear JFETs; now they are cheap, if you can get the factory to pay attention. For a while it looked like we would get low noise MOSFET-like devices that behaved a little more like tubes, but it never happened (good idea, no funding). Today we can use circuit topologies that would be impractical with tubes or early FETs. Every design is a compromise, and the parameters you choose determine what kind of compromise it is. People judge microphones without the knowledge of these choices, and tend to make comparisons based on what they can see -- transformer or not -- regardless of the other implications of this choice. For instance, a transformerless design typically produces a higher output level. This means I can choose a less sensitive capsule for a given perceived output level, which might sound a lot better in some other way.

So please, can we avoid the simple comparison between transformer and transformerless mics as if they were two of a kind? Each mic has its own personality, and within this personality there are a lot of different aspects. Contrary to Georg Neumann's wisdom, the electronics do greatly affect the sound of the pickup -- particularly, as David Satz points out, at high signal levels. There are also the issues of how a given design handles high RF noise environments, cable lengths and interaction with various preamps. Remember that your own experiences are exactly what they are, and will probably help you to make better choices in the next session. But if you want to remain open to still better choices in the future, it would be a good idea to skip the connection between the design differences that you can only know a little bit about, and the performance differences that you can hear.
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David Josephson -- Josephson Engineering Inc -- www.josephson.com

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