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[craig boychuk]

Yeah, I know that mixing isn't mastering and vice versa, but the principles of making something translate well on vinyl apply to both, so here we go...


One thing I'm curious about is HF distortion. How accurately predict what's gonna sound really bad when it hits the record? I know you're supposed to watch out for 16k and up (or is it 8K....?) but that's about all I know. Not much.

So far, I've just been generally cautious with high end and have had good results, but I'd like to quantify what I'm looking out for.

Any other tips for putting stuff on vinyl are welcome and encouraged!

[bblackwood]

This is the perfect spot for some of our vinyl guys (current or former) to step up...

Paul? Steve? DC? Anyone else?

[TotalSonic]

Hi Mid-fi -
I wouldn't obsess with this on your end - any decent vinyl mastering engineer will be able to take care of any issues for you.  Basically my suggestion is to make the mix sound good to you in your monitors and let the transfer engineer do what they're paid to!

As far as high end - pretty much on every transfer we'll use a low pass filter set usually around 15kHz-16kHz - but on some I've gotten as low as 13.5kHz to deal with tracks where they obviously cranked the "air" band up (which is ok with digital - if sometimes way over done on some masters - but just won't translate to vinyl).  I have a feeling a lot of the warmth people attribute to vinyl is the fact that the high end is just not cranked to the point of pain as it is on a lot of CD's!  But really - this is an area I don't think the mix engineer should worry about as what you think might cause a problem might translate without a hitch - and visa versa.  This kind of thing really varies from track to track.  When we're setting up a transfer we can monitor the current being sent to the cutting head and see when the various safety limiters start kicking - and hear based on experience when the highs might not translate - and the correct only as needed.  So basically - make the mix you want - and let the mastering engineer master.

One nice thing with DMM over lacquer is that it really holds the high end a lot better - you get a lot lot less high freq loss, distortion or pre-echo - so it ends up being brighter and more defined

You can see microscopic views of the same grooves cut with a DMM lathe and a lacquer lathe & more info on the process here:
http://www.europadisk.com/dmm.html

Again - I kind of posted these before - if you can control the following things in mixing it does make our lives a little easier:
* de-ess sibilant vocal tracks so that we don't have to de-ess the track globally
* don't pan things like 2 different simultaneous bass lines left and right (although we have limiters that can sum below 300Hz to mono at a certain threshold to deal with these kinds of problems)
* avoid the urge to crank up the highs to crispy - as we'll just have to back these things right back down
* keep levels fairly even - but there's definitely no need to  squash them! - we can add a little compression or limiting at the transfer if it actually needed
* keep the body of kick drums sound at a freq above 40Hz.


If you're preparing a master for a direct to vinyl master disc transfer (either lacquer or DMM) one thing is to leave around 3-6 seconds in between each cut so that there is no sound in the spiral (the wider grooves that are placed between each track - we actually have to manually hit a "marker" button on the transfer console to have the lathe cut these - so we can't place them as quickly as pq points can be!) - and it helps to have the sides seperated by at least 6 seconds so we don't have to scramble to get the fader down when the first side ends.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

my work place: http://www.europadisk.com/master.htm
new updated site at totalsonicmedia.com coming soon!

[craig boychuk]

Thanks a lot, that pretty much says it all. I guess as long as I don't get too carried away with the HF, everything should be alright. I tend to be pretty realistic with the highs...overly crispy top end makes me wince! Youch!

Thanks again for the info!

[craig boychuk]

Just checked out your website, TotalSonic...this DMM stuff sounds real interesting. Is it a relatively recent development?

[Gold]

Steve covered most of the bases. I would quibble with a couple things.

I cut masters flat as a matter of course. No HPF or LPF. I do use protection high frequency limiters but I don't like to see them move.

I don't think there is a problem with audio in the spiral. If the cuts are crossfaded I just put a spiral in the general neighborhood. It's easy to cue a record.

[Bob Olhsson]

I think one important thing than hasn't been mentioned is making sure everything you want in the center is DEAD center. If you are mixing on a console, double-check the pan-pots with tones. I've had some rude surprises from some very very expensive consoles on this point.

[TotalSonic]

mid-fi wrote on Thu, 08 July 2004 17:19

Just checked out your website, TotalSonic...this DMM stuff sounds real interesting. Is it a relatively recent development?

Hi Mid-Fi -
Basically DMM was the final refinement in vinyl master disc cutting technology ever done.  
I forget the actual year that Neumann introduced DMM - but the lathe at Europadisk I believe was made in 1984.  Very few DMM lathes were ever made as the simultaneous introduction of CD pretty much eventually killed off the commercial interest in it.
The Neumann DMM lathe is an amazing piece of machinery - a definite feat of German precision engineering that truly integrates the highest electronic and mechanical standards.  It has a computer which calculates and sets the cutting depth & width to the always changing optimal settings on the fly.  It's been a real joy to get a chance to work on it and learn the intricacies of it directly from the man who brought DMM technology to the US, Europadisk's president Jim Shelton - who has years and years of experience mastering for vinyl.
At Europadisk we have our own plating department which creates the 14" copper blanks for the DMM mothers - I believe we're the only facility left in North America which does this.  By having this in house we can guarantee an extremely high level of quality control to make sure that the blanks have an incredibly clean signal to noise ratio.  Anyway - if you want the cleanest possible record - I think DMM is the way to go.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Gold]

TotalSonic wrote on Sat, 10 July 2004 10:43

mid-fi wrote on Thu, 08 July 2004 17:19 Just checked out your website, TotalSonic...this DMM stuff sounds real interesting. Is it a relatively recent development? Very few DMM lathes were ever made as the simultaneous introduction of CD pretty much eventually killed off the commercial interest in it.

There were 12 systems manufactured. Six came to the U.S. I believe Europadisk got two. Correct me if i'm wrong. I know one has been converted to a lacquer lathe and I have heard but am not sure that another one has too. Another one is in disrepair and in storage. The last one is owned by an engineer and sits in his residence. I don't know where the other six systems are.
Although I know Abbey road has one.

Quote:

The Neumann DMM lathe is an amazing piece of machinery - a definite feat of German precision engineering that truly integrates the highest electronic and mechanical standards.

Yes it is. It's a beautiful machine.


The DMM system was developed by Teldec. Neumann made the disc mastering equipment and Toolex Alpha made the copper blank fabricating equipment, galvanic system and pressing machines. With DMM you avoid both the silvering and "father" stages of electroplating. You are cutting the "mother".

The only down side to DMM is that it doen't like to cut a deep groove. It has to carve out copper which is much harder than lacquer. Since it won't go deep you can't cut insanely loud records with it because at those levels it will mistrack.

[TotalSonic]

Paul -
Thanks so much for the info - always cool to get more background on this stuff especially that I'm now in the midst of it.

It's funny - these 12 lathes are kind of like Tolkien's Rings of Power -    - all spread around the world.  Wonder if we collected them all if we'd be able to take over the world?

You're correct - Europadisk has 2 of them.  The second is kept in storage (and I don't think it's ever really seen much service time) as insurance that production never has to be interrupted if the first had to have any downtime for any reason.  Nothing like the Noah's Ark plan to make sure that you can always get to work!

Anyway - is Al Grundy the engineer that owns one that you were talking about?  I've heard rumors that he has a number of lathes in various states of repair.  Regardless, he's the man as far as really knowing the insides of these things.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Gold]

TotalSonic wrote on Sat, 10 July 2004 22:46

Anyway - is Al Grundy the engineer that owns one that you were talking about?  I've heard rumors that he has a number of lathes in various states of repair.  Regardless, he's the man as far as really knowing the insides of these things.

No he isn't. I forget his name but he got the one from Sterling. Al did one of the conversions to a lacquer lathe. Al does have many, many lathes. Some pieces are sitting here as he has run out of room at his shop.  He also has the library from Gotham Audio with all schematics and revisions. Every lathe is slightly different. Everything I know he has taught me. It was well worth it this weekend to take care of his dog while his daughter got married. I know I'll never be down for long. He has a spare lathe like mine here so I can borrow parts if I need them.

[Bobro]

I have some questions about the physical limitations/possibilities of bass on vinyl. Judging by 12" dance singles and the thin sound of crowded LPs, it seems that you could get away with heavier bass on an LP with shorter material on a side. Is this correct? If it is, what kinds of typical total track lengths are we looking at?

thanks,

-Bobro

[bobkatz]

Bobro wrote on Sat, 17 July 2004 07:01

I have some questions about the physical limitations/possibilities of bass on vinyl. Judging by 12" dance singles and the thin sound of crowded LPs, it seems that you could get away with heavier bass on an LP with shorter material on a side.

Yup! Ten minute sides should handle dance singles without significant compromise.

BK

[Bob Olhsson]

The low frequency limits are governed by physical space and the tracking capabilities of playback cartridges. The less time that needs to be recorded, the more space becomes available to work with.

As you increase the level, you increase the space requirements and the need for relatively deep grooves so the playback stylus won't go flying out. When mixing, it's important to understand that the RIAA curve BOOSTS everything below 50 Hz. in order to suppress turntable rumble.

Mono, in-phase audio causes lateral stylus motion while out of phase information causes vertical movement.The more in-phase the low frequencies are, the deeper a groove you can cut. Out of phase low frequencies can even lift a cutting stylus right off the surface of the lacquer!

[TotalSonic]

Hey Paul -
I just remembered who has one of the other existing DMM lathes in the US - it's the Church of Science Technology (aka the Scientologists)!  They use it to cut DMM masters of L. Ron Hubbard's and other Scientologist speeches which they put into time capsules with specially built wind up record players so that even in future centuries without electricity people will still be able to retrieve his words!


Kind of freaky, huh?

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[perry]

* don't pan things like 2 different simultaneous bass lines left and right (although we have limiters that can sum below 300Hz to mono at a certain threshold to deal with these kinds of problems)

for club/dance tracks should you be keeping this in mind from the get go?  rather than leaving it for the mastering engineer to rectify using this summing limiter?

can you name a make/model of this type of limiter so i can read up on it?

...also just wanted to say thanks to paul gold who was kind enough to exchange a few emails with me a month ago on my quest to become a vinyl mastering engineer.

new orleans needs one real bad!

perry chen
new orleans

[brewsbee]

If you'd like to check out DMM sound, find a vintage vinyl copy of Graceland by Paul Simon.  Lots still around.  Compare to a CD and you'll see why this remains the state of the sonic art.

Then check the irony on the liner notes.   "Originally mastered by Greg Calbi at Sterling Sound, New York.  DMM Direct Digital Mastering."

Yes, by 1986, the "D" word was mandatory.  I mean, what the hell would "metal" mean on a Paul Simon record.  AC/DC maybe...

[Gold]

TotalSonic wrote on Sat, 17 July 2004 15:59

Hey Paul - I just remembered who has one of the other existing DMM lathes in the US - it's the Church of Science Technology (aka the Scientologists)!  Kind of freaky, huh?

Why yes it is. I used to work at a studio next to a residential building for them. It was quite an interesting block with the hookers, junkies, Scientologists, and tourists. The junkies and hookers were much friendlier.

[James Craft]

mid-fi wrote on Thu, 08 July 2004 04:49

Yeah, I know that mixing isn't mastering and vice versa, but the principles of making something translate well on vinyl apply to both, so here we go... One thing I'm curious about is HF distortion. How accurately predict what's gonna sound really bad when it hits the record? I know you're supposed to watch out for 16k and up (or is it 8K....?) but that's about all I know. Not much. So far, I've just been generally cautious with high end and have had good results, but I'd like to quantify what I'm looking out for. Any other tips for putting stuff on vinyl are welcome and encouraged!

A lot of things have been covered here already. I came up through mastering with a lot of emphasis on what radio was going to do to the record when played. This training came from Welton Jeton, some directly from him, mostly second hand through my Dad. We had a Pultec filter set first up in the mastering chain, for AM radio (45's) I was taught to keep the HP filter set to 70hz, low pass to 10k, also had a vertical crossover set to 250hz (some instances on a real nasty stuff 500hz) and after the compressor/limiter (1176LN's with a stereo adapter) was the Westrex HF limiters. All of these settings got you within the ballpark for the mechanical/electrical limits of your medium, the 45 rpm record on AM radio. AM radio had some nasty limiters which would pump like a bitch if your bottom end was not controlled and any high end over 8-10k was as useless as "tits on a turtle" (also remember that a large percentage of your 45rpm buyers back then typically had a $49.95 record player that had a response from 100hz-10K at most). Then you had to use your ears by switching between the raw source and processed source to try and get the prod/eng's mix as close as they originally had it in tone via your EQ's and settings on the 1176's. Levels and groove depth depended on total length of the material. LP's were a little more liberal as far as settings go as they were normally bought by people with better systems and/or played on FM radio which was not as severe in the pre-transmitter processing. Typical starting points were 40hz for the high-pass, 12-14k for the low-pass, vertical  crossover at 150hz (I cut a lot of 'em at 70hz though, always used a scope to check my phase on the bottom), levels/groove depth again dependant on program length, LP's almost always 4-6 db lower than what you could get on a 45.  I haven't mastered any lacquer since 1985 and by then I had been doing it for almost 10 years. A lot of it has to be a compromise between your target playback system and the mechanical limits of vinyl.

[TotalSonic]

perry wrote on Sun, 18 July 2004 08:03

* don't pan things like 2 different simultaneous bass lines left and right (although we have limiters that can sum below 300Hz to mono at a certain threshold to deal with these kinds of problems) for club/dance tracks should you be keeping this in mind from the get go?  rather than leaving it for the mastering engineer to rectify using this summing limiter?

Hi Perry -
It's easy enough to deal with the problems from the ME's end - but if the mix engineer can make sure that the phase is correlated while tracking then it can make things easier to get it cut - and allows us to make sure that the vinyl master stays truer to the original mix.

Quote:

can you name a make/model of this type of limiter so i can read up on it?

It's definitely not something you can get these days off the shelf!  We're using the Neumann VAB84 vertical amplitude limiter and the elliptical equalizers built into the Neumann SP79 transfer console.  Great vintage German engineering  - as usual - works like a charm!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Gold]

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 19 July 2004 16:41

It's definitely not something you can get these days off the shelf!  We're using the Neumann VAB84 vertical amplitude limiter and the elliptical equalizers built into the Neumann SP79 transfer console.  Great vintage German engineering  - as usual - works like a charm!

I have these things called Quasrasonic Limiters that were made by CBS Labs. They do the same thing as the VAL84. Unfortunately they sound terrible so I don't use them. The elliptical eq is much better. One of these days I may try to whip them into shape. They use a three band VCA based limiter with LM301? opamps. I think that's where the problem is. The input receiver looks okay and the output is a Melcor A721 Line amp.

[Bobro]

Thanks for the answers.

It seems to me, after seeing the frequencies mentioned here and the notes on phase, highs, etc., that mixing with (hi-fi) vinyl in mind, is right along the lines of "righteous" mixing in general, where you're keeping in mind playback systems, FM radio play and just plain tidyness.

Don't know if there'll be funds for vinyl in a current project but I'm mixing it now with vinyl specifically in mind, the discipline is good and perhaps everything is benefitting as far as translatability.

-Bobro

[Level]

Paul Gold comes highly recommended by yours truly.

One question though.In my vinyl collection, I have many albums that have panned bass with no mistracking (tracing) issues on my vinyl deck. I even have one album that is around 25cm/second with one side bass. Why the big push to mono bass on vinyl when we know that it has been done time and time again in the past?

My White 200G vinyl of Pink Floyd 'Wish you were here', we all know 'welcome to the machine' has alternating bass lines left and right of 'c' and 'e' (32hz and 42hz) at rather high amplitude and it is rock solid (about 17cm/sec)

Scared of blowing a cutter head?

Curious on this one.

[TotalSonic]

Level wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 10:25

Paul Gold comes highly recommended by yours truly. One question though.In my vinyl collection, I have many albums that have panned bass with no mistracking (tracing) issues on my vinyl deck. I even have one album that is around 25cm/second with one side bass. Why the big push to mono bass on vinyl when we know that it has been done time and time again in the past? My White 200G vinyl of Pink Floyd 'Wish you were here', we all know 'welcome to the machine' has alternating bass lines left and right of 'c' and 'e' (32hz and 42hz) at rather high amplitude and it is rock solid (about 17cm/sec)

Whether these things are reproduceable really depends on the exact nature of the material - how badly out of phase it is - and what level it is cut at.  Thing to realize that on a typical dance 12" single we're cutting about 6db louder than on the loudest of the rock LP's!

The other thing to realize is that these days even for vinyl releases clients are often coming in with budget constraints and expect us to get it right from the very first test pressings (and often just order a straight transfer as they're not aren't even willing to pay for a little extra studio time - 1/2 hour is usually all I need - to optimize their release for vinyl - and don't even order copper references (the DMM equivalent of the dub plate) to hear their master before putting it on press). With a group like Pink Floyd back in the day they would spend time to make sure that the mastering was the best possible even for problematic areas. So, if someone wants to spend for the studio time and even to make multiple tests to try some things out we can certainly accomodate them.  It's just that these days it's much rarer to get that opportunity - most clients I deal with instead want things in a hurry and want it to be "right" (meaning as close as possible to their original master and trackable while still having a very healthy level) from the get go.

It's funny this conversation came up - because I just cut a side  of some really crazy sounding "lo-fi" rock where it sounds like it was recorded on a 4track and there were things like deliberate swirling noise put all over the original program.  This side was seriously out of phase - I'd never seen the phase correlation meter or the red lights on the VAB84 dance around like this before!!  The only way I could cut it so the whole thing was trackable was to bring the overall level down. So - yes - we can reproduce it - just at a lower level than "LOUD".

I also just cut a couple sides for a client that had peak limited to the point of maybe a half db dynamic range on their CD premaster and they had also added a ton of piercing high mids.  The end result was that while they though they were doing things to make it "louder" I had to cut to quieter levels than usual because at higher levels it would just turn to hash.  So - we're not making CD's here folks - go gentle with those L2's and the plugin-du-jour!

Quote:

Scared of blowing a cutter head?

Ya darned right we are!!!  It ain't like you can just go to the local Guitar Center and hand them your $50 and have them hand you a Neumann SX84!!  While a few spares are still around and a few guys that still have the knowledge to effect repairs haven't retired just yet - these things are near irreplaceable - so while we're not afraid the push the envelope within sane levels I don't know of a single client that it's worth to getting right to the edge for. Anyway - staying within safe parameters it's still easy to get a "phat" record with pumping levels.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[James Craft]

TotalSonic wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 14:41

Level wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 10:25 Paul Gold comes highly recommended by yours truly. One question though.In my vinyl collection, I have many albums that have panned bass with no mistracking (tracing) issues on my vinyl deck. I even have one album that is around 25cm/second with one side bass. Why the big push to mono bass on vinyl when we know that it has been done time and time again in the past? My White 200G vinyl of Pink Floyd 'Wish you were here', we all know 'welcome to the machine' has alternating bass lines left and right of 'c' and 'e' (32hz and 42hz) at rather high amplitude and it is rock solid (about 17cm/sec) Whether these things are reproduceable really depends on the exact nature of the material - how badly out of phase it is - and what level it is cut at.  Thing to realize that on a typical dance 12" single we're cutting about 6db louder than on the loudest of the rock LP's! The other thing to realize is that these days even for vinyl releases clients are often coming in with budget constraints and expect us to get it right from the very first test pressings (and often just order a straight transfer as they're not aren't even willing to pay for a little extra studio time - 1/2 hour is usually all I need - to optimize their release for vinyl - and don't even order copper references (the DMM equivalent of the dub plate) to hear their master before putting it on press). With a group like Pink Floyd back in the day they would spend time to make sure that the mastering was the best possible even for problematic areas. So, if someone wants to spend for the studio time and even to make multiple tests to try some things out we can certainly accomodate them.  It's just that these days it's much rarer to get that opportunity - most clients I deal with instead want things in a hurry and want it to be "right" (meaning as close as possible to their original master and trackable while still having a very healthy level) from the get go. It's funny this conversation came up - because I just cut a side  of some really crazy sounding "lo-fi" rock where it sounds like it was recorded on a 4track and there were things like deliberate swirling noise put all over the original program.  This side was seriously out of phase - I'd never seen the phase correlation meter or the red lights on the VAB84 dance around like this before!!  The only way I could cut it so the whole thing was trackable was to bring the overall level down. So - yes - we can reproduce it - just at a lower level than "LOUD". I also just cut a couple sides for a client that had peak limited to the point of maybe a half db dynamic range on their CD premaster and they had also added a ton of piercing high mids.  The end result was that while they though they were doing things to make it "louder" I had to cut to quieter levels than usual because at higher levels it would just turn to hash.  So - we're not making CD's here folks - go gentle with those L2's and the plugin-du-jour! Quote: Scared of blowing a cutter head? Ya darned right we are!!!  It ain't like you can just go to the local Guitar Center and hand them your $50 and have them hand you a Neumann SX84!!  While a few spares are still around and a few guys that still have the knowledge to effect repairs haven't retired just yet - these things are near irreplaceable - so while we're not afraid the push the envelope within sane levels I don't know of a single client that it's worth to getting right to the edge for. Anyway - staying within safe parameters it's still easy to get a "phat" record with pumping levels. Best regards, Steve Berson

My Dad popped the right channel on a Westrex 3DIIAH and all I can say is "I thank God it wasn't me who done the deed!". $1300 in 1980 dollars and 3 days of down time. We had a spare, but it was an older 3DII and decided not to use it. The cutter head on a mastering lathe is probably one of the most delicate instruments in the world.

[Gold]

Quote:

One question though.In my vinyl collection, I have many albums that have panned bass with no mistracking (tracing) issues on my vinyl deck.

Not everyone has their turntable set up so well. Most don't and there lies the problem.

Mistracking is different than tracing errors. Mistracking would be a skip. Tracing distortion occurs because as you go towards the inner diameter the wavelength for a given frequency gets shorter. When the wavelength of a given frequency is physically smaller than the tip of the playback stylus you get distortion. The playback stylus can not trace the shape of the groove properly.

Quote:

I even have one album that is around 25cm/second with one side bass.

How are you converting level to velocity?

Quote:

Scared of blowing a cutter head? Curious on this one.

Terrified but excessive high end blows cutter heads excessive low end doesn't.

[TotalSonic]

Gold wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 20:26

Quote: I even have one album that is around 25cm/second with one side bass. How are you converting level to velocity?

I'm curious on this one too!

Quote:

Quote: Scared of blowing a cutter head? Gold wrote on Thu, 22 July 2004 20:26 Terrified but excessive high end blows cutter heads excessive low end doesn't.

Ahhh - terrified.  That was the word I was looking for!  As in waking up in the middle of the night with a cold sweat from the nightmare of it ever happening!

Yeah excessive low end just makes things,
just makes things,
just makes things,

ummm.... skip.

On DMM if things are really out of wack with phase and you're trying to cut at ridiculously extreme levels you also can run the risk of the cutter stylus going through the top layer of copper on the mother and into steel layer which forms the blank the copper lays on which would damage the cutting head also - so vertical limiting is an important thing!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[Level]

Quote:

How are you converting level to velocity?

Back in 1977, I was given a 4 record set from Neumann which has many tracks of different groove modulation references at many different frequencies and a chart that compares velocity/level/frequency. Comparing relative buffer amplifier meter readings with known velocities at known frequencies establishes a "rough" (+/- 10%) extrapolation of actual velocity.

Since the curve is sliding (due to RIAA/frequency/depth/land widths allowed/cutter compression) amongst other variables) it gives a close approximation.

It has been so long since I ran a lathe that it is refeshing to revisit this information again!

I doubt it is a scientific instrument...rather it is a teaching tool and proves valuable for getting the most out of a cartridge/arm/platter/plith system.

IIRC, it was Stephen Paul who let me know of it way back then.

[Gold]

The reason I asked about the velocity numbers you gave is that 25 cm/sec is about +20 dBm in stereo. It's a very high level. It would distort most playback systems. 17 cm/sec is about +12dBm which is  really about all the systems were designed to take cleanly. Most would have a very tough time tracking 17 cm/sec on one channel.

[Bob Olhsson]

The reason for low frequencies in the center is entirely a matter of cutting level. Many LPs are long enough that there's no advantage at all. This is why it isn't a good idea to try and second-guess a cutting engineer.

On the other hand if you want the hottest possible level, it's a good idea to keep the low-end dead center. Elliptical equalizers were always something we avoided but sometimes there was no choice.

[Level]

Yes, extremely high level indeed. 33cm/second was the highest level (at 1khz) that I had on vinyl until Telarc cut that one #80041 1812/Overture Cincinnati. This is way up there.


This particular version of PF WYWH is a 2 record set, Welcome to the machine takes up an entire side. Very wide Lands. I have yet to find another copy of this album on 200g and twin records (4 sides)

I guess they cut it for non consumer purposes. The M95ED will track it. (Shure)

[James Craft]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sat, 24 July 2004 01:48

The reason for low frequencies in the center is entirely a matter of cutting level. Many LPs are long enough that there's no advantage at all. This is why it isn't a good idea to try and second-guess a cutting engineer. On the other hand if you want the hottest possible level, it's a good idea to keep the low-end dead center. Elliptical equalizers were always something we avoided but sometimes there was no choice.

I agree Bob, but if you're talking about Motown, you guys had a lot of QC that started on the original tracking dates and I imagine everyone was on the same page from the word go. We did a lot of "Custom Label" work where somebody sent in a tape to a pressing plant and ordered 500/1000 pieces. I think we got $30/side for 45's, $55/side for LP's and if you blew a blank you ate it, seldom did you cut refs on this product. We also did a lot of work for A. Boladian at Westbound/Nine in Detroit and that stuff was better product (noted exception is some of the live stuff that came out on Nine) where you could get away with not using the elliptical EQ. Also the Hi stuff we did was pretty straight forward. W. Mitchell wanted as little as possible in the way of EQ/compression, but wanted it as hot as you could get it with a 4 mil groove. My Dad and I where talking earlier this week he said Willie never wanted to hear the ref played back on the main system in the mastering room, he always listened on a little fold-up $99 stereo record player we had.

[Gold]

Quote:

Why the big push to mono bass on vinyl when we know that it has been done time and time again in the past?

I have succumbed to peer pressure. The other day I mastered an album that is very stereo. It's weird noisy rock. Sometimes the band is on one side and there is just a voice on the other. There are other parts where the bass is on one side and drums on the other. I just cut a dub plate with no elliptical EQ. It really gave the automatic depth system a work out. I've never seen it work that hard. I'll wait to get feedback from the label. I hope they don't have any problems. I played it without any problems. If it's approved I'll post what it is and when it will be available.

[Bob Olhsson]

Hey, I'm one of the kings of ridiculously extreme levels! We used to use a skip test sequence that had been developed by RCA Victor. We calibrated several players using this and a proposed master had to not skip on any of them.

It's a good thing extreme levels aren't as necessary as they were back in the vinyl era.

[Gold]

Quote:

We used to use a skip test sequence that had been developed by RCA Victor. We calibrated several players using this and a proposed master had to not skip on any of them.

Could you give some details of this sequence. I have been trying to develop torture tests. Sometimes no matter how out of whack I make the pick up I can't get a skip when others do. I have a cartridge that is mounted cock eyed. I'll take almost all the weight off with no problems. I'll seriously over weight it with no problems. I need to find the worst possible playback system. Or better yet a way to simulate different types of worst playback systems.

Quote:

It's a good thing extreme levels aren't as necessary as they were back in the vinyl era.

For DJ records I think levels exceede hot 45's of the past. For a 12" single at 45rpm if the track is done well I'll pin the meters and make sure they don't move. I go for sound first but producers who know what they are doing often give me tracks where that can be done without compromise.

[Bob Olhsson]

It was a series of 7" 45 test records. I haven't got a clue where you'd find them. In 1965 RCA was pressing more of our records than theirs and they weren't even doing the reorders!

There's a lot narrower range of pickups around today so it wouldn't be that hard to have the most common DJ models on hand.

[Gold]

Quote:

There's a lot narrower range of pickups around today so it wouldn't be that hard to have the most common DJ models on hand.

I do have a little collection but I think a lot of it has to do with poor turntable setup. I keep a Stanton 681EEE on the lathe. I have a Stanton 500, Shure V15 type V, Shure M44-7. I should probably get a couple more. I hate those Ortophon concorde style ones that are popular. I can't belive anyone uses them. I guess they look cool. Since they are one piece, any variation an manufacturing tolerence will cause problems. I really don't want one around here but I have a feeling I'll have to get one sooner or later.