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Author Topic: Apogee UV-22  (Read 4360 times)

Big Bri

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Apogee UV-22
« on: July 03, 2004, 12:36:20 AM »

Is Apogee UV-22 still viable?  Or has it completely been replaced with pow-r? And, is there something even better?

Thanks
Brian Baker
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bobkatz

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2004, 01:51:05 AM »

Oh great, another dither discussion  Smile

I NEVER found UV-22 to be a highly-resolved dither (in the sense of revealing the depth and dimension of the source). UV-22 was for me one of the biggest hypes ever made. I performed a "dither wars" comparison about 6 years ago that convinced me and the other half-dozen participants in the shootout of the inferiority of UV-22 to a decent noise-shaper. However, compared to an indecent noise shaper (earlier models), UV-22 made a lot of sense as it was pretty neutral tonally.

Today was a unique day when it came to dither; choice of dither really mattered. Most days it's just a plug and play thing and no one (including me) makes a fuss as long as it's a "name brand". But today I had a client over and a particular project where the flavor of the dither turned out to be VERY critical. It was a classical piece where a lot of attention had been made to the depth and the width, and was recorded and then mastered by me at 96 kHz. The reduction to 44/16 is a loss, and the choice of dither that we ended up with was always a compromise with no absolute winner. The four dithers under consideration were: POW-R 3, POW-R 2, and Waves Ultra (9th order) as implemented in the L2 (threshold set to 0 dB so no limiting action).

Tonally we liked the Waves dither best, it was pleasant and very pure, with POW-R 2 being second, and POW-R 3 being third. POW-R 3 sounded a bit grainy or a hair bright on the soft and delicate material, but on the large full orchestra, voice and organ it sounded fine and not bright to us. However, we settled on the POW-R 3 because it revealed the most space and depth overall and spatiality and depth was the client's priority. If spatiality were not the client's priority we would have settled on the Waves. And if it were not such a nuisance to switch dithers, we might have used the Waves on the soft material and the POWR-3 on the louder and more spacious material.

This judgment is VERY material dependent. You need to become familiar with how the dithers you are considering react with different material as they are all compromises compared with the 24 bit original. On some material you can hardly if at all hear a difference. But with this soprano singer whose sibilance and high frequency character had to remain pure, POW-R 3's tendency to be a bit bright became magnified with this material. Although with most material lately I've been choosing POWR-3 almost by rote, and if there is any question of whether the tonality is getting grainy or bright, switch to either POW-R 2 or the Waves Ultra, as either one is excellent.

With less critical material, I would say either POW-R 2 or Waves Ultra is your safest bet if you don't want to spend much time deciding if there is a downside. That's the newer, 9th order Waves, by the way.

I personally am not a fan of flat dither unless depth and dimension is not important to you. There are others who will argue that flat dither is all you need---but on critical material I do hear these difference------if you care about depth and dimension and ambience, then choice of noise shaping is critical. If you don't, or if you think that all noise-shaped dither sucks, then go ahead and use flat dither.
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bblackwood

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2004, 11:40:22 AM »

FWIW, most noise-shaped dithers (such as POWr2 and POWr3) sound like they actually add top end to the 16 bit versions. I generally prefer flat TPDF.

But then again I'm just a cloth-eared hack...
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Brad Blackwood
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Oldfart

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2004, 07:27:36 PM »

Excuse my ignorance,

but what is TPDF?
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Denis Paquette

bblackwood

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2004, 07:34:16 PM »

Triangular probability density funtion.

Read about it here...
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Brad Blackwood
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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2004, 08:14:01 PM »

And what do you use to do this type of dithering Brad?
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Denis Paquette

bblackwood

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2004, 08:45:35 PM »

Samp7. It's generally just called 'flat dither' or something like that. Does what it's supposed to do without changing anything else, imo...
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Brad Blackwood
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dcollins

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2004, 10:21:52 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 04 July 2004 08:40

FWIW, most noise-shaped dithers (such as POWr2 and POWr3) sound like they actually add top end to the 16 bit versions. I generally prefer flat TPDF.

But then again I'm just a cloth-eared hack...


And I thought B-rad cared about "depth and dimension and ambience"  Could I be any more wrong?

DC

OTR-jkl

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2004, 11:44:47 AM »

Bob -
I'm curious what you think about the CraneSong Analog Dither CD dither...? I've compared it with the POWr dithers and the 2 types offered in Samp7 and - to my ears - CS dither sounds more open than the others; meaning that it sounds like there is more space behind the mix when using CS dither.


Brad -
The Samp7 dither you're referring to, is it the "with Linear spread noise" or the "with triangular spread noise" option? (Those are the only ones listed (besides POWr) in the Classic version. Are there others in the Pro version?)
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bblackwood

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2004, 11:58:06 AM »

OTR-jkl wrote on Tue, 06 July 2004 10:44

Brad -
The Samp7 dither you're referring to, is it the "with Linear spread noise" or the "with triangular spread noise" option?

Triangular spread noise.
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Brad Blackwood
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bobkatz

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2004, 12:28:16 PM »

It's funny how so much controversy can result over so little. It's been a while since I looked at the spectrume of the Cranesong dither. If I recall correctly, it is a gentle high pass filtered noise.

Anyway, the object is to mix it in at a calibrated low level in a 24 bit system and then truncate to 16 bits.

People's opinion on this subject range from "flat dither is all you need and 9th order noise shaping is the devil's dream" to "flat dither removes all the space from a recording".  I sit about 1 inch from the right hand end, and whenever I've auditioned 2nd order dithers I've yawned, so I'm the wrong person to ask for an opinion on "yet another 2nd order dither" if you want my approval on it.

It's all about masking, there are no perfect dithers, and reasonable men (and women) may differ in their preferences. (Even though I know I'm right  Smile

BK
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dcollins

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2004, 02:02:08 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 04 July 2004 17:45

Samp7. It's generally just called 'flat dither' or something like that. Does what it's supposed to do without changing anything else, imo...


You have tried other approaches though, right?  

When you hit the dither buttons on your L2, does it suddenly go to mono under some settings?

Is NS2 wetter?

Which setting can give me some of that "sheen" I hear so much about?  That would really be a help.

Muchas preguntas,

DC

TotalSonic

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2004, 08:29:21 AM »

I had a friend who ran a test and found that UV-22 applies the exact same noise to both sides, and he felt this might contribute slightly to the collapse of the stereo image when it is applied.  

I haven't tested this - but does the POW-R algorithm apply different noise to each side?

Anyone using the Megabitmax algortihm for their noise shaped dithers?  

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2004, 10:29:47 AM »

dcollins wrote on Wed, 07 July 2004 01:02

bblackwood wrote on Sun, 04 July 2004 17:45

Samp7. It's generally just called 'flat dither' or something like that. Does what it's supposed to do without changing anything else, imo...


You have tried other approaches though, right?

POW-r, IDR, UV22, add nauseous...

Quote:

Which setting can give me some of that "sheen" I hear so much about?

Honestly, that's what POWr specifically sounds like to me - like it's adding EQ to brighten it up. On most projects, I can A/B the flat dither vs the 24 bit file without knowing which is which and can hardly tell the diff. If it requires a system with the resolution mine has to barely get beyond statistically guessing, I'm thinking there are other things to focus on.

But again, with the cloth ears and the hacking...
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Brad Blackwood
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bobkatz

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Re: Apogee UV-22
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2004, 11:27:19 AM »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 07 July 2004 08:29

I had a friend who ran a test and found that UV-22 applies the exact same noise to both sides, and he felt this might contribute slightly to the collapse of the stereo image when it is applied.  




Image collapsing can definitely be traced to correlated noise between channels. I feel pretty sure that the modern-day implementation of UV-22 is non-correlated (different noise to both sides). But I have not tested for it.

Quote:



I haven't tested this - but does the POW-R algorithm apply different noise to each side?




POWR uses an impeccable pseudo-random noise generator. No, I am not a flack for the POW-R consortium, I just know how that a tremendous amount of work went into making the generator pseudo-random and different on each channel. If you are concerned about tonal balance changes, there is always POWR-1, which is the POW-R consortium's answer to UV-22.

Quote:

Anyone using the Megabitmax algortihm for their noise shaped dithers?  


Good question!
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