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[weihfool]

I'm currently in the mixing phase of a project with a band I've never worked with before this project.  We've just begun the mixing and they had a few pointers for me to keep in mind so as to not veer off in the wrong direction (they're not present when I mix..... how joyous my life can be).

The leader/alpha male/singer of the band, upon hearing his vocal up a bit higher than the rest of the tracks asked me "You're not going to leave that like that, right?  Like, you're going to do stuff to make it sound "not so raw", right?".  To which I commented, "of course, dude.  I will make it sit nicely amongst the rest of the tracks".

Now, this guy has some SERIOUS confidence issues with his voice and I know he wants me to slather his tracks up with delay, 'verb, flange, and whatever else I can put on there to make it NOT sound like he actually does.  The problem is that kind of treatment of his vocal won't fit the songs or the vibe of the band.  

Now, I put forth my question to all of YOU engineerin' types:  

How do you sell the band on the mix you've done?  

How do you go about convincing the timid singer that his tracks should be up where they're clearly audible and convince the bassist that putting a stereo panning delay on his tracks is a BAD idea (unless, of course, you want something like that).

I usually will explain why I did the things I did and then give them the changes they ask for.  Usually, we wind up coming back to what I had handed them in the first place.  

So how do YOU handle it?

[redfro]

Try playing some tracks of whatever band it is they are trying to sound like. Show them that what you are doing is what they are hearing. I had to do this on a band that came in and wanted the mix to sound "Helmet-ish". When they heard "Helmet-ish" they didn't think it was "Helmet-ish" till I played the track then played Helmet. All of a sudden the mix was great. Just what they wanted.

I sometimes think being an indie engineer is more about psychology than audio. Sometimes.....

[lucey]

weihfool wrote on Tue, 29 June 2004 16:45

Now, I put forth my question to all of YOU engineerin' types:   How do you sell the band on the mix you've done?   How do you go about convincing the timid singer that his tracks should be up where they're clearly audible and convince the bassist that putting a stereo panning delay on his tracks is a BAD idea (unless, of course, you want something like that). I usually will explain why I did the things I did and then give them the changes they ask for.  Usually, we wind up coming back to what I had handed them in the first place.   So how do YOU handle it?

-Are you hired for your Producing or to Engineer?  
-What is your respect level in your community.  
-If not you, who is Producing or at least responsible for final decisions?  Mob rule?  



I tell them I want to finish my thing first, then if they want to try other things we can (it's their money and music).

Many times the wisdom of the music will wear their idea out b4 it gets it's chance, and other times we try their idea. Maybe 5-10% of the time they add something of musical value, although disproportionate to the time spent, it is their time, their music and their money... and every little bit helps!

[j.hall]

i never push a mix

NEVER EVER

i work alone quite a bit which bothers me.....

but i have to dive in and go where i think the song wants to go

if the band hates it, i do it again.....i never try to assume that i understand their vision, or their motivation for writing the song

i do find it odd that i get hired because i approach songs differently.....then they don't want the different

hahahahaha

i am a big fan of NEVER pushing a personal agenda on a piece of art

to some level, me patching comnpressors, EQ's and throwing faders around is already a personal agenda thrown at the song......but that's as far as i wish to take it

now, when i'm asked to do a mix the way i would do it....i'm happy to do that, and it happens....

i see myself as more of a vessel, i offer 'x' level of clarity and quality and balancing to the table.....from there, you tell me what you want..........

[drumsound]

I like to get the mix close and then have the band come in and give notes and make their adjustments. Then I make my comments about what I think does and doesn't work if the ideas aren't as useful as hoped...

[Fibes]

When bands are looking over your shoulder on 1db volume adjustments things are going to get weird. There is a tendency (especially with singers) to lose the big picture, their mix notes only relate to them personally. In situations like that it's either you, the producer, references to other stuff, or other bandmates that have to put into perspective the most important thing, the big picture. Funny how the bass player will think everything is perfect for the track, except for his bass. HHHHHMMM? Time for some slap and tickle.

You know your monitors inside and out, the band doesn't, this can become an issue for some bands as well and should be kept in mind.

Whatever you do, always hear their concerns, evaluate them and either make the necessary adjustments or make the case that everything is where it needs to be, by whatever means necessary.

[weihfool]

lucey wrote on Wed, 30 June 2004 01:50

-Are you hired for your Producing or to Engineer?   -What is your respect level in your community.   -If not you, who is Producing or at least responsible for final decisions?  Mob rule?

I was hired to engineer/mix their EP but it's a local band that i've known for some time, so I'm kind of the producer in a way, although they have final say on everything.  They pretty much just put their faith in me that I know what needs to be done and then they'll comment on the results.

Quote:

I tell them I want to finish my thing first, then if they want to try other things we can (it's their money and music).

This is pretty much what I do.  I send them MP3's or give them a reference disc and then they ask for changes.  

Quote:

.....although disproportionate to the time spent, it is their time, their music and their money... and every little bit helps!

This is the other pickle.  Since I'm friendly with them, and my recording isn't my main bread and butter, I'm mixing for a flat fee, which is damn near nothing.  Now, yes, it's my own doing that has put me here, but as I remember J. mentioning on an earlier, unrelated thread, my free time is very limited and very valuable to me.  Since I won't be compensated for the amount of time I'm spending on it in the first place, I try to avoid spending time on suggestions or changes that I can say with 99% confidence, will not make them happier.  

So though I agree with J. that you shouldn't try to push anything on the client (sell was a poor choice but I couldn't think of a better way to state it), I feel like sometimes, especially with young, inexperienced bands (mainly what I work with), giving them a few pointers or explaining why their suggestions might not work is actually beneficial to them.  Naturally, this can't be done in a condescending manner, so it's thin ice to skate on, but I would think some of you must've run into this situation in the past at some point or another.  Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[Rob Darling]

I never sell a mix.  I listen to the artist and give them what they want.

To make sure they aren't off the map in their references, I make sure they listen to some other music, references I've told them to come up with for me to here, before listening to their mixes.

But the client is always right.  If he says a vocal is too raw, that means you need more effects, whether that is dynamics, eq, automation of above, delays, subtle flanging, short comb-filter delays, reverb- whatever- you should be listening to what they say and trying to translate their needs and their vision into a great-sounding record.  This is how you grow as an engineer.

[weihfool]

robdarling@mail.com wrote on Wed, 30 June 2004 14:58

But the client is always right.  If he says a vocal is too raw, that means you need more effects, whether that is dynamics, eq, automation of above, delays, subtle flanging, short comb-filter delays, reverb- whatever- you should be listening to what they say and trying to translate their needs and their vision into a great-sounding record.  This is how you grow as an engineer.

I totally agree.  Trying to translate what they hear in their head into reality is definitely the goal.  However, I've had some requests that, at least in my experience, could definitely cause problems, such as the bassist asking for a ping-pong stereo delay in a section of a heavy tune where the guitars are going full tilt.  Please bear in mind that he doesn't use this effect live, nor did he ever mention it to the rest of the band before we began the mixing phase of the project.  

The other thing to keep in mind is that although we're in a service industry, if the mix suffers for the artist's "vision", any other potential client who hears it may form a negative opinion about your skills as an engineer and consequently it could cost you work.  

I realize the trick to it is to appease the artist and at the same time do what you know is right, however I've run into situations where the artist just had to have something I knew in my head and heart wasn't working.  I'm not saying I know how everyone thinks, but there are times when your gut instinct tells you "no way".  Has anyone here ever run into that and if so, how do you handle it?  

The idea of referencing a similar artists' recording is a good one, although that can be touchy as well, especially if the band thinks that they sound "nothing" like that other artist.

[j.hall]

now hold up a second

there is a difference to handing of a giant pile of steaming crap just because you did everything the client wanted

if i did EVERYTHING they wanted all the faders would be pushed all the way up on every mix i have ever done and will ever do

i get mixes going, get the muting done, get the compression and EQ done and balance there

the "X-mas" as i like to call it, is where it begins

i'l change anything they want, try anything they want, and do anything they want

what i won't do is continually turn everything up just to make every one feel like i'm accomodating their request to be louder

the end product still has to be as good as you can make it

young bands will learn from their mistakes, but i won't let them blame me for a bad balance.....

[lucey]

weihfool wrote on Wed, 30 June 2004 13:23

This is the other pickle.  Since I'm friendly with them, and my recording isn't my main bread and butter, I'm mixing for a flat fee, which is damn near nothing.

in general, it sounds like your dilemma is that they have tons of ideas to try

and you are on flat fee

and you are 'friends' as much or more than 'hired' in any professional sense

yes?




if so you need to communicate this to them .. the part that says "if i produce, i produce ... and if you want to try ideas all night every night, we need to discuss and hourly make up"

Assume this is a label record, the Producer does not watch the hours idly tick away and the days of billing pile up because of a million bright ideas.  We draw a line in the sand, somehow, someway.



And in a tracking/mixing situation 'the customer is not always right', although they need to understand why that is (via your respecful and logical comunication) so they can then change their mind ... thus being always right.

[Fibes]

The trick is not giving them what they ask for, but instead, giving them what they want. Mutually exclusive animals...

[weihfool]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.  Brian, you hit the nail on the head.  I'm definitely not "professional" at all, in this case.  These are guys I've known forever and they've done all of their previous demos themselves with a 4 track Fostex cassette machine and a single mic.  The rough mixes I brought up for tracking had them happy.  However, once they realized that they had quite a bit more freedom for experimentation working with me than they did on the 4 track, that's when the whole thing began to snowball.  Anyway, problem solved.  I presented them the mixes the way I thought they should sound and they loved it.  Conceptually though I must admit that Fibes summed up the entire situation for me with one statement.  Bravo.  

[Jules]

I invite the band in at the last stage.

Usually I have mixed and done a few rides - typically 7pm

They listen on the bigs

They listen on the boogie box

The do this over and over about 4 times..

I also force them  out for a 'hall listen' - taking the pad with them. (loud on the mains but standing around the corner out of range of the tweaters - in the next room)

Then I make one band member nominate a 'scribe' or secretary.. to write down what they all feel.

IT MUST GO ON THE PAD OR IT WONT GET LOOKED AT.

Then

We go 'through the pad' and fix stuff.

No one is allowed to 'stray from the pad' and come up with 'and there is just one more thing' - its has to be agreed and written down...

I am a strict /semi Nazi about sticking to this method, but as I am always hired as 'producer' I  can get away with it.

This works well for me. It takes me an hour or so usually to address all the issues they have with my mix...

As I am on recall / PT - we get through 3 mixes in one night like this... (Although I may have spent many many days tweaking them beforehand!)

[debuys]

Fibes wrote on Fri, 02 July 2004 20:12

The trick is not giving them what they ask for, but instead, giving them what they want. Mutually exclusive animals...

I'm with Fibes on this one, but to add something. Give a band what they need sometimes not exactly what they want.

I never sell a mix. I mix it the way I feel is right and when I'm paid they get it (new rule...I am owed too much). I tell them to listen to it a week later and to call me in two. This works well since in that time they generally get bored listening to themselves and start to actually hear the mix. I generally do small mix changes for free when it fits in to my schedule.

When it's big changes and the band is amatureish I charge. Price is the intersection of the Supply and Demand curves. Thus, there demand will intersect with my Supply curve when they run out of money. In this scenario the mix sells itself well.

Jokeing aside I do what it takes to make a client happy and sometimes that means explaining to them that you feel strongly about your mix and would like to give them two versions when they've paid; yours and the one that they run all over.

When the band is actually pro level, these rules change and generally they know what they want or just trust my ears and it's never an issue.