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[Adam The Truck Driver]

I can't seem to get an answer from TAG. Perhaps several hours through an entire day isn't enough time to answer an email? Anyone know what the 24 input 1112 is going for loaded with the center section and 24 channel monitor section?

My other option is the Neotek Elan II TT I suppose if the Daking isn't going to happen. I like the Daking preamp well enough. I don't know diddly about the Neotek. I'm figuring to budget perhaps up to 25K for a very nice sounding, easy to work on analog board. Are there any other practical contestants in this price range? I know the ATB is widely praised for it's EQ, and it is priced considerably under 25K, but what else can it do beyond having a nice EQ?

TYVM
AB

[leonardo valvassori]

If you can get the Daking, wait.

I'd love one.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

I'm sure I'd love one too. I just don't know, and I very much want to know if it, Daking 1112, is priced in the same range as the Neotek. I have time to wait, though a reply from TAG would be nice. One apparently has to go through them to get one. I would imagine either would be very suitable though I would expect the Daking to be a bit/slightly more colorful.
From my understanding on what I have read on the Neotek it is basically transparent. I haven't heard it. Have heard my Daking preamp.

thx
AB

[arlenthompson]

Here's your Daking: http://soniccircus.com/Daking-1112-Custom-24-x-8-x-24-Class- A-Discrete-Analog-Recording-Console?sc=2&category=7920

$108K. Not cheap.  But what great things are?

Neotek's are nice, do a great job and you could find one for about 1/4 of the cost of the Daking.  I've never heard a Daking console, but I have the pre/eq and the compressor, so I can imagine that they are probably fantastic sounding.

[Mike O]

Very interesting.....that is my console in the pic. I assume Geoff gave them the installation pic for marketing which is cool.

Someday I'll get him a better one, but I'm looking for space to relocate to so it might be a while.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

That looks so awesome and I'm sure it sounds fantasic. It looks way big, but then it isn't inline. That price is most likely to
put it out of my reach. So Sad. So...Neotek it is I guess. I can then afford a few more Daking preamps, and a tube pre or 2 and a couple of the Daking compressors...among other things outboard. I could maybe have that console, the 1112, and not much else if anything for outboard pres/dynamics/EQ and my monitors would defineately be a lesser genome as well and cables and so on. I have my answer...lol...now I feel disappointed. But the Neotek will be very nice. 19.5K for the 24 channel. Anyone have one already?

TYVM
AB

[Mike O]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 14:41

That looks so awesome and I'm sure it sounds fantasic. It looks way big, but then it isn't inline. That price is most likely to put it out of my reach. So Sad. So...Neotek it is I guess. I can then afford a few more Daking preamps, and a tube pre or 2 and a couple of the Daking compressors...among other things outboard. I could maybe have that console, the 1112, and not much else if anything for outboard pres/dynamics/EQ and my monitors would defineately be a lesser genome as well and cables and so on. I have my answer...lol...now I feel disappointed. But the Neotek will be very nice. 19.5K for the 24 channel. Anyone have one already? TYVM AB

78" wide. Many people like Neotek and do fine work on them. Maybe you should think about used?

[ToddP]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Tue, 03 February 2009 21:02

I can't seem to get an answer from TAG. Perhaps several hours through an entire day isn't enough time to answer an email? Anyone know what the 24 input 1112 is going for loaded with the center section and 24 channel monitor section? My other option is the Neotek Elan II TT I suppose if the Daking isn't going to happen. I like the Daking preamp well enough. I don't know diddly about the Neotek. I'm figuring to budget perhaps up to 25K for a very nice sounding, easy to work on analog board. Are there any other practical contestants in this price range? I know the ATB is widely praised for it's EQ, and it is priced considerably under 25K, but what else can it do beyond having a nice EQ? TYVM AB

Adam-- we forwarded your email to Geoff. We don't sell the consoles, only the rack gear. Geoff sells and installs the consoles himself. You should hear from him.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Mike O wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 09:26

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 14:41 That looks so awesome and I'm sure it sounds fantasic. It looks way big, but then it isn't inline. That price is most likely to put it out of my reach. So Sad. So...Neotek it is I guess. I can then afford a few more Daking preamps, and a tube pre or 2 and a couple of the Daking compressors...among other things outboard. I could maybe have that console, the 1112, and not much else if anything for outboard pres/dynamics/EQ and my monitors would defineately be a lesser genome as well and cables and so on. I have my answer...lol...now I feel disappointed. But the Neotek will be very nice. 19.5K for the 24 channel. Anyone have one already? TYVM AB 78" wide. Many people like Neotek and do fine work on them. Maybe you should think about used?

I have absolute confidence in the Neotek unheard and sight unseen just from reputation. I'm leary of bying anything used...anything. I know lots of people do, but with my luck I would get a dud...and then...Houston, we have a problem.

Be good
AB

[Adam The Truck Driver]

ToddP wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 09:54

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Tue, 03 February 2009 21:02 I can't seem to get an answer from TAG. Perhaps several hours through an entire day isn't enough time to answer an email? Anyone know what the 24 input 1112 is going for loaded with the center section and 24 channel monitor section? My other option is the Neotek Elan II TT I suppose if the Daking isn't going to happen. I like the Daking preamp well enough. I don't know diddly about the Neotek. I'm figuring to budget perhaps up to 25K for a very nice sounding, easy to work on analog board. Are there any other practical contestants in this price range? I know the ATB is widely praised for it's EQ, and it is priced considerably under 25K, but what else can it do beyond having a nice EQ? TYVM AB Adam-- we forwarded your email to Geoff. We don't sell the consoles, only the rack gear. Geoff sells and installs the consoles himself. You should hear from him.

Oh...Thanks...unfortuneately it is out of my reach in practical price I have already learned.

thx
AB

[arlenthompson]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote

I have absolute confidence in the Neotek unheard and sight unseen just from reputation. I'm leary of bying anything used...anything. I know lots of people do, but with my luck I would get a dud...and then...Houston, we have a problem. Be good AB

You could always book time at a local place that had a Neotek.  Bring a mix and spend an afternoon working on it.  It would be worth the cost if you're dropping the change on a new console.

[wwittman]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 09:41

... I could maybe have that console, the 1112, and not much else if anything for outboard pres/dynamics/EQ ...

you would have no NEED for outboard mic pres and EQ.

ask Geoff about a deal on a few compressors for buying the desk.

The Neotek is decent. But nothing exciting.
Personally I'd probably take a Toft as soon as a Neotek.
But neither is in  the same league with the Daking.

You're comparing to an all discrete, all transformer desk... try pricing an API!

[compasspnt]

What about looking at the new (Rupert) Neve thing, unloaded?

[Adam The Truck Driver]

It is an option I have considered Terry. I understand though that those quickly add up to 100K when you start to load in modules. I have considered Audient also. I might just go with the Mix Dream(s) as was my first intention and get those Euphonix controllers, but I'd really like to have a real analog board with faders and EQ and AUXes, and so on. Time will tell.

William I don't mean I'd want or need another 24 outboard EQs if I could have the Daking 1112, but I would want...oh...perhaps 3 outboard EQs of various design, or 1-3 pair maybe for given applications that maybe the Daking EQs aren't 100% perfect for. They might be 90-98% there but aren't perfect because they can't be dialed in to the perfect frequency. I only want to be able to cover the occassional requirement for adjustment to the inbetween frequencies that board EQs don't cover. EDIT: and only when EQ is needed.

TYVM
AB

[compasspnt]

I think in your case I might just go with the new Toft ATB, at least for now.

Especially if it's just you using it (carefully).

[Sean Eldon Qualls]

wwittman wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 17:45

You're comparing to an all discrete, all transformer desk... try pricing an API!

A 32-input API 1608 (3208?) can be had for just under $90k. It won't have a jukebox but you can monitor 8 channels from the recorder/DAW via buss inputs. Or you can get out of the preamp prefader, and then return on the fader. Or add 8200A's as necessary. Maybe axe some equalizers in the expander. Or just start without the expander...

[Adam The Truck Driver]

 I was only interested in the Neotek as I'd read some on it having very deep sound, while being pretty transparent throughout, and it has very affective EQ so I've read.

I could certainly afford the ATB without question. I'm more than willing to save 10-12K and get an ATB. Then I'd have the monitors I really want. I have concern on the ATB's versitility. It can handle contemporary rock and or country music, loud stuff. Everyone seems to like the ATB EQ I know, but how are the preamps and everything else in the thing? Can it handle acoustic based music like bluegrass, and folk like stuff, or a chamber quartet with appropreate results? I've read it is designed as a rock and roller board.

This studio I'm going to build may become a commercial facility at some point. It should be large enough certainly to accomodate a variety of situations, but it is first and foremost for my own enjoyment, and I have oddly high standards. Still have to stay Earth bound though.

thanks
AB

[wwittman]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 23:54

... Everyone seems to like the ATB EQ I know, but how are the preamps and everything else in the thing? Can it handle acoustic based music like bluegrass, and folk like stuff, or a chamber quartet with appropreate results? I've read it is designed as a rock and roller board.

It's OKAY, at most.
but so is a Neotek

I'm not saying you can't do better.
I'm only saying that you might not be able to do better at that price point.

[compasspnt]

wwittman wrote on Thu, 05 February 2009 01:24

I'm not saying you can't do better. I'm only saying that you might not be able to do better at that price point.

Exactly. The ATB is not the end of the world, by any means.

But at that price point, you could also get several of one particular high quality microphone preamplifier as your "front end."  Use those for the most things during tracking, and for everything during overdubs.

Keep levels reasonably low so you don't get into digital trouble and/or overdrive the ATB line inputs.

Then monitor and mix ("sum") through the desk, using the analogue EQ as needed (much better than most plug-ins).

[Tomas Danko]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 23:33

It is an option I have considered Terry. I understand though that those quickly add up to 100K when you start to load in modules. I have considered Audient also. I might just go with the Mix Dream(s) as was my first intention and get those Euphonix controllers, but I'd really like to have a real analog board with faders and EQ and AUXes, and so on. Time will tell. William I don't mean I'd want or need another 24 outboard EQs if I could have the Daking 1112, but I would want...oh...perhaps 3 outboard EQs of various design, or 1-3 pair maybe for given applications that maybe the Daking EQs aren't 100% perfect for. They might be 90-98% there but aren't perfect because they can't be dialed in to the perfect frequency. I only want to be able to cover the occassional requirement for adjustment to the inbetween frequencies that board EQs don't cover. EDIT: and only when EQ is needed. TYVM AB

If I would be so lucky to own a Daking desk, whatever surgical EQ task that could not be handled by the desk EQ I'd simply take care of using some plug-in inside the DAW. Doesn't have to be any more fancy than that, really.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Well alright then.

What would be the next step up, or 2 up from an ATB? I'm prepared to spend up to 25K in my budgeting, as of now, for the analog console, minimum 16 channels. If I shrink everything else down, maybe I could swing the Daking, but the place would then be tiny. The Daking might not fit in the control room then, or it'd would be a pretty tight working space, but that has been done before with great success.

I would accept a used console if I can have some assurance that I'm not going to get screwed on it in any way...technical...real value or otherwise...but then...whats really any good used in the price range? I wouldn't really know much about something used. For example, I've read bad things, particularly here, about MCI. So I know to stay away from MCI. What else might there be that is good?

Thanks to all.
AB

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Tomas Danko wrote on Thu, 05 February 2009 05:59

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 23:33 It is an option I have considered Terry. I understand though that those quickly add up to 100K when you start to load in modules. I have considered Audient also. I might just go with the Mix Dream(s) as was my first intention and get those Euphonix controllers, but I'd really like to have a real analog board with faders and EQ and AUXes, and so on. Time will tell. William I don't mean I'd want or need another 24 outboard EQs if I could have the Daking 1112, but I would want...oh...perhaps 3 outboard EQs of various design, or 1-3 pair maybe for given applications that maybe the Daking EQs aren't 100% perfect for. They might be 90-98% there but aren't perfect because they can't be dialed in to the perfect frequency. I only want to be able to cover the occassional requirement for adjustment to the inbetween frequencies that board EQs don't cover. EDIT: and only when EQ is needed. TYVM AB If I would be so lucky to own a Daking desk, whatever surgical EQ task that could not be handled by the desk EQ I'd simply take care of using some plug-in inside the DAW. Doesn't have to be any more fancy than that, really.

I should give it a chance at least to some degree...ITB dynamics and EQ I mean.

Thanks
AB

[Mike O]

A 16 channel Daking would be like 50" wide. If that will not fit then you don't have a control room.

BUT....In your shoes/budget I would probably give up on the Daking. Define what room/space you need to record the musicians that you want to record in the manner you want to do it.

Need to record 5-6 piece rock with isolation?
Need to record a string quartet?

It's all compromises. You can add/change consoles/equipment later. The room is much more difficult.

A quick thought on used consoles (and studio config/design): If I were going to buy a big, over the road truck rig that I could make money with year over year I would hire someone that had experience with all aspects of that particular business: driving (performance/comfort, etc.), accounting (fuel economy, depreciation), maintenance (cost over time).

It sounds like you plan on spending a fairly substanial amount of money. As many of us do, you are researching and refining your ideas on-line. Cool. But before you get your ideas to 'hard set' I would encourage you to formally engage someone in this industry with experience in all areas of this business. They can help you put together a progressive plan of action in context of your needs and budget.

A few grand now will save you MOUNTAINS of money and frustration later.

If I am out of line; please ignore; but please do take care and good luck!

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Thanks Mike

It's fine man. You're right. I should seek a paid professional to help me design my facility. I have previously considered that idea. I have concern as to how long it would take, how do/should I start the communication and with which consultant should I plan with and whats that going to cost. Odd how every answer leads to more questions.

In regards to getting a truely good analog console I am planning to nix the seperate building, and move it's space, the control room and live room to the 3rd floor of my house. Frieght elevator is in the plan, and or wide stair cases. I was going to have master bedrooms up there, but I can change that easily enough. Not having the seperate building might save me 20K at least in rough building cost and materials, and then I won't have finishing costs, so I'm up to maybe 40 or 50K extra saved for the console.

I own my own truck and have my own authority by the way. It is what will be paying for all this initially.

Have a nice day
AB

[rankus]

As an owner of an ATB I can say the preamps are usable and actually sound ok... (in a pinch)  but I run outboard pre's as much as possible and use the ATB's pre's for overflow (Toms etc.)  

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Alright Rick thanks. I was planning to run a nice compliment of outboard everything, including premium preamps, but this leads me to more questions. If I get the ATB, is it a colorful sound throughout or would you say what you put in is what comes out?

Thanks
AB

[wwittman]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Thu, 05 February 2009 18:44

, is it a colorful sound throughout or would you say what you put in is what comes out? Thanks AB

forgive me Adam, but this is gearslutz style doubletalk.

give me an example of a desk that is "colourful" as opposed to a desk that is "you put in is what comes out"


which is an API?
a Neve?
a Helios?
an SSL?
a Neotek?
a Daking?

in EVERY case they have their 'sound' and in every case they more or less give you back what you put it (with their individual characters)


bottom line is that with your budget I would consider the ATB and then add however many Dakings as you can in your budget (after you've spent what you need to on room design and treatment and monitors and mics and so on)

and as Terry said, try to use the better quality mic pres as much as possible and use plug-in EQ in the twice a year cases when you need "other frequencies" the hardware might not have.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

I've never been to gearsluts...or WETF it is...what I'm asking is if I go spend 12 grand plus on outboard pres to run through the ATB, if I get one which is pretty much being used for EQ and summing only...is the ATB going to alter their sound too much, or rather lack there of should I select more transparent preamps like that, this, those and these ect, not to name names as this isn't a preamp advertisement but is about the Toft ATB and it's signal purity throughout...what I want to hear in that case on a given source is the microphone selection on the source and their respective positions to eachother within a given space...not the board...should the board have some color of its own I might not want to spend something well over a grand per channel on mic preamps...when their sound will be altered by the board...and I understand the ATB pres aren't so great...I can get some pres for less money that have great smooth sound to start with, but with a bit of color that are well under 1K per channel. So if the ATB adds a bit more color it's alright because I'll know I'm not going to be after a super clean sound anyway, cause I can't get one. If I have a 100% great sounding board with great pres to start with, as in this Daking 1112, I'd just go with it and not want additional pres...a couple pair or 3 of select outboard comps and EQs yes for mix...pres no.

I've had 3. Sorry to rant on.

I appreciate all the help, seriously.
Hell...I need to go to bed...back to work tomorrow I go.

TYVM
AB

[kats]

Unless your going commercial (or money is burning a hole in your pocket) I'd stick with the ATB. It sounds good, and it won't hold you back. If you want it cleaner, it's a simple simple mod to swap out a couple of chips in the master section.

I own a Neotek as well as a ATB (which I sold) so I'm speaking from a bit of experience.  The pres on both boards are just fine. Get a pair of boutique pres and your set to go.

Now if you ARE going commercial just sell the ATB and lose 1K and buy a more suitable console.

[Tomas Danko]

With all respect, sometimes I wonder what the underlying reason for doing something like this can be.

If it is because you are dying to record (or write, perform and record) music then you just get whatever you can get your hands on NOW and start doing it. You can upgrade during the process, but there is nothing stopping you from doing what you live for. Besides, it will give you real life experience that tells you what you really DO need and what you don't.

Otherwise it starts looking a lot like Gear Acquisition Syndrome, and more about dreaming up plans for the future while drooling over catalogues filled with gear.

Since I have no knowledge at all in this particular case, please don't consider this personal. It's just stuff that sometimes cross my mind when I follow threads of people in general that ask about gear a lot over a longer period of time.

Cheers,

Danko

[mixwell]

Adam The Truck Driver wrote on Thu, 05 February 2009 22:56

I've never been to gearsluts...or WETF it is...what I'm asking is if I go spend 12 grand plus on outboard pres to run through the ATB, if I get one which is pretty much being used for EQ and summing only...is the ATB going to alter their sound too much, or rather lack there of should I select more transparent preamps like that, this, those and these ect, not to name names as this isn't a preamp advertisement but is about the Toft ATB and it's signal purity throughout...what I want to hear in that case on a given source is the microphone selection on the source and their respective positions to eachother within a given space...not the board...should the board have some color of its own I might not want to spend something well over a grand per channel on mic preamps...when their sound will be altered by the board...and I understand the ATB pres aren't so great...I can get some pres for less money that have great smooth sound to start with, but with a bit of color that are well under 1K per channel. So if the ATB adds a bit more color it's alright because I'll know I'm not going to be after a super clean sound anyway, cause I can't get one. If I have a 100% great sounding board with great pres to start with, as in this Daking 1112, I'd just go with it and not want additional pres...a couple pair or 3 of select outboard comps and EQs yes for mix...pres no. I've had 3. Sorry to rant on. I appreciate all the help, seriously. Hell...I need to go to bed...back to work tomorrow I go. TYVM AB

Forget Gearslutz;

If your question is if the ATB is colored or "out of the way" its very much out of the way, with a nice smooth texture. It does have a sound like anything, and SURE there are PLENTY of better sounding consoles, with better sounding electronics, but the ATB [in total, for the dough] sounds pretty good to me, and I think you could get some work done with it and be happy. That's what my clients report to me anyway. My advice would be to get outboard [or anything gear related] that 100% fits your personal taste for what you want to to hear from your microphones and music. I would suspect an API 3124 and a Great River MP2NV along side the ATB [or whatever discrete amplifiers you like] will offer the meat and potatoes for tracking, and the ATB's preamps are for all the ancillary stuff like toms and scratch tracks. I dunno, I could cut well recorded tracks with the preamps on the board, they are just not super hero's for tone, but they do the job.  

[leonardo valvassori]

Desk or pre's----just buy Daking. It's the BEST deal out there.

[compasspnt]

As The Philosopher once said, "I would rather have Bob Clearmountain mixing my record through a Toft ATB than Joe Schmo through a perfect original Neve 80xx."

[wwittman]

I'd rather have Bob Clearmountain mixing my record through an ATB than his SSL

[compasspnt]

Well, I didn't want to say it, but...

[mixwell]

The ATB, sadly, won't mix the record for you.

[wwittman]

No.
you need PLUG INS for that.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

If I could I wouldn't use any plug-ins. We'll see.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

I know. I have to pay my dues. I'll go with Mackie.

[leonardo valvassori]

wwittman wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 21:22

I'd rather have Bob Clearmountain mixing my record through an ATB than his SSL

But how are you going to get 'todays sound' with out an SSL?

[wwittman]

Leonardo Valvassori wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 12:46

But how are you going to get 'todays sound' with out an SSL?

I know. I have to settle for using the L-2 to flatten everything.

[Kenny Holloway]

So, what did you get, Adam?

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Nothing as yet. I hit a wall. Lost my big cash flow I had going. I've taken on more bills, the kind you pay, not the good kind.

[BQ]

For what it's worth, I own a Toft ATB-24, one of the pilot program consoles.

I've used a Neotek, and I think the EQs in the Toft are far superior, while the pres in the Neotek are slightly better. The pres in the Toft are perfectly usable, but they don't provide quite enough gain for my ribbon mics on quiet sources. That said, they do the job. It's worth noting that the Toft will expose any grounding issues in your setup, the mains wiring in my home studio (in the loft of my victorian house), isn't ideal, and I definitely have some issues with ground hum. That's not the Toft's fault though, and I'm able to work around it most of the time.

The workflow and routing on the Toft is also very good. It's very easy to work on, and I can quickly dial in a rough mix.

I think that for your budget, a Toft + some outboard pres would make you very happy. You shouldn't take my word for it though... It's well worth booking a day in studios which have the consoles you've shortlisted, to see which one you get on best with.

Best of luck!
    -Brendan

[Nobtwiddler]

I've owned both a Neotek for 10 years and a Daking for the same.
As much as I loved the Neotek, and it is a great console, there is nothing sonically similar between the two.
The Daking is Punchy, sweet, warm, and just plain Big sounding by comparison.
The Neotek, was nice, very clean with good Eq, but it never made my hair stand up, if ya know what I mean.
It did what it was supposed to, and nothing more!

The Daking on the other hand is a new classic.
I had Desk #1 as I am the guy who commissioned Geoff to build me a console.
7 years and three prototypes later,we now have a Daking console.
You all can blame me!

It's every bit as good as a Neve, Api, Trident,  etc, etc....

Over and out!

[Nobtwiddler]

Oh, and here's a shot of our custom made Neotek Series IIIC from 1985 when we were featured on the cover of Mix Magazine.

[stevieeastend]

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 05 February 2009 09:24

wwittman wrote on Thu, 05 February 2009 01:24 I'm not saying you can't do better. I'm only saying that you might not be able to do better at that price point. Exactly. The ATB is not the end of the world, by any means. But at that price point, you could also get several of one particular high quality microphone preamplifier as your "front end."  Use those for the most things during tracking, and for everything during overdubs. Keep levels reasonably low so you don't get into digital trouble and/or overdrive the ATB line inputs. Then monitor and mix ("sum") through the desk, using the analogue EQ as needed (much better than most plug-ins).

How is the summing on an ATB? Has anyone experience with it?

Thanks in advance!

cheers
St