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[bblackwood]

masterhse wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 07:15

I still don't get it. Other than for financial reasons why would anyone want an emulation of anything unless there was a distinct advantage?

I think financial motivation is the answer, 100%.

I admittedly don't keep up with the plug-in world as I've yet to hear one that touches my analog processors. That being said, I do believe it's only a matter of time until we reach the point where digital emulations can accurately capture/model the real thing. Are we there yet? I'm not the one to ask, but I doubt it - last I heard we were much closer than a decade ago but still a long way off.

All that said, there's a reason places like Sterling Sound have 'after hours' deals and companies like Manley build less expensive lines/brands - to maximize their market. There's nothing wrong with someone identifying a segment of the marketplace they haven't targeted and figuring out how to get a piece of it without compromising themselves. Whether or not the emulations in this discussion fit that mold or not remains to be seen (heard).

That being said, somehow I doubt those who watch ebay will see a rash of hardware MP's for sale anytime soon...

[Peter Beckmann]

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 13:24

That being said, somehow I doubt those who watch ebay will see a rash of hardware MP's for sale anytime soon...

Absolutely!

Peter

[Noah Mintz]

mcsnare wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 16:28

C'mon Brad really. Not a plug in user? Get with the program for cryin' out loud. Jeeze some people. Dave

Ya, even I jumped on the plug-in band wagon after my cohort Phil spent his son's college fund on 3 Audiocube plugs.

And keep in mind my advertising in my early days at Lacquer Channel said: "No Recording, Mixing, Protooling or Karaoke, and for fucks-sake NO PLUG-INs"  

My how things have changed.

Noah

[Darius van H]

UAD make great plugins, and i'm very curious to hear these Manley plugs. The MP has a very characteristic sound, so it'll be quite easy to hear how close they come.

I don't think pluggies are quite all the way there yet, but at the end of the day, an audio CD is just 1's and 0's, so when these clever boffins work out the correct combination of 1's & 0's, we'll be able to ditch the analog gear - maybe  

[dubwise]

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 08:24

masterhse wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 07:15 I still don't get it. Other than for financial reasons why would anyone want an emulation of anything unless there was a distinct advantage? I think financial motivation is the answer, 100%.

Speaking as someone who has always worked ITB, and so admittedly has no idea what he is missing,
I find it difficult to imagine being constrained by knobs.

Total automation is a very useful tool. I don't have to master song by song and reset the processors.
I drop the entire album into a project and deal with it as one unified object.
I have as many copies of the processors that I own as I want, and I can repeatably tweak
any and all of the parameters moment by moment as needed, between songs or within a song.

Computers make hard things easy and easy things hard.

[masterhse]

While I agree that automation and recall are advantages, is moving a knob with a mouse (or typing values) less constraining that moving a knob, let alone several at once? Personally I'm much less distracted with my hands on the knobs (often with eyes closed) than looking at a screen.

There are so many variables in an analog world that I find it difficult to believe that all can be reproduced with complete accuracy through logic as much of it is illogical. Yeah "close" or "sounds like" but still not the real deal. Analog is organic, living and breathing. The sound of tape is dependent on speed, how hard it's hit, formulation, bias, alignment, and hundreds of other variables. Tubes change based on heat, load, age, and other factors. Would someone create code that added a different character based on how long the plug-in was running in the DAW?

I do feel plug-ins (really software as I put outboard digital hardware in this category) have their place. There are definitely things that can be done digitally and through logic that can't be accomplished via analog, that's its strength. Why not use both to their strengths rather than have one try to be the other? If costs were not the issue, would an analog emulation of a Weiss unit make sense? IMHO it's redundant, development and research could be better spent elsewhere. If you want to make money by telling people that they can buy something at 1/4 the price that sounds like the real thing that's another story.

Vegetarian/tofu versions of beef taste like the real thing but it's still not steak.

[Waltz Mastering]

masterhse wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 21:03

There are so many variables in an analog world that I find it difficult to believe that all can be reproduced with complete accuracy through logic as much of it is illogical. Yeah "close" or "sounds like" but still not the real deal. Analog is organic, living and breathing. The sound of tape is dependent on speed, how hard it's hit, formulation, bias, alignment, and hundreds of other variables. Tubes change based on heat, load, age, and other factors. Would someone create code that added a different character based on how long the plug-in was running in the DAW? I do feel plug-ins (really software as I put outboard digital hardware in this category) have their place. There are definitely things that can be done digitally and through logic that can't be accomplished via analog, that's its strength. Why not use both to their strengths rather than have one try to be the other?

I have to agree with this...  The best of Analog - The best of Digital.

TW

[dubwise]

masterhse wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 21:03

While I agree that automation and recall are advantages, is moving a knob with a mouse (or typing values) less constraining that moving a knob, let alone several at once?

Changing the knobs during playback? Definitely less constraining. I'm a big fan of automation curves.
How do you compare one song to another when both use the same processor on different settings?

Quote:

Tubes change based on heat, load, age, and other factors.

And this is a good thing? I like consistency and control.

Quote:

Would someone create code that added a different character based on how long the plug-in was running in the DAW?

The WatKat tape echo emulation claims to do that, so I'd say yes. Not something I'm interested in,
but if you want the random factor, it can be made available.

I'm just saying there are reasons to use plug-ins aside from the financial, as was contended.

[TotalSonic]

dubwise wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 22:09

masterhse wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 21:03 While I agree that automation and recall are advantages, is moving a knob with a mouse (or typing values) less constraining that moving a knob, let alone several at once? Changing the knobs during playback? Definitely less constraining. I'm a big fan of automation curves. How do you compare one song to another when both use the same processor on different settings?

It's incredibly easy with a simple monitoring controller.  At one button push I can change from listening to one source or another.  So I can go from listening to a track that was previously processed playing back on my capture DAW, and then compare it to the unprocessed source track that I am working on and then compare this to the sound of the track I am working on as it sounds through my analog/digital process chain - all in a second - and all level matched.  

Quote:

Quote:  Tubes change based on heat, load, age, and other factors. And this is a good thing? I like consistency and control.

I do as well.  Most analog hardware used for mastering is very stable and allows for easy recall.  

Quote:

I'm just saying there are reasons to use plug-ins aside from the financial, as was contended.

Of course there are.  

As someone who has done a good bit of mastering completely in the box in the past I also have to add that there are also definite reasons that I proceeded to invest some major cash in analog hardware to compliment the digital processors - namely that there is a quality to the sound of analog hardware that I've yet to hear any digital processor - modelled or not - quite achieve.  To me the characteristics inherent in some analog processors are well worth the investment.  ymmv.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[cerberus]

Glenn Bucci wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 10:07

2. The signal running through hardware transformers and electronics adds a little something that the plug in lacks.

a certain "je ne sais quoi"?

jeff dinces

[masterhse]

dubwise wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 22:09

Quote:  Tubes change based on heat, load, age, and other factors. And this is a good thing? I like consistency and control.

You can gain consistency and control, actually more control, when you know what the variables are. Part of the reason some use a certain type and make of tubes, or prefer vintage over new, and obviously warming up gear before using it. How do I change tubes or modify the load of a plug-in unless all of the parameters and audible factors of these changes have been programed? What if I don't like the choices the programmer has made? Even with something like the WatKat tape echo emulation, how would one emulate placing your finger on the "reel" and applying different amounts of pressure?

There are also some situations (not really in mastering) where you may want inconsistencies, guitar players and the amps they choose are one example. The tubes/circuitry of my old Fender Bassman have a really cool compression character when I turn it up to a certain level and hit the strings hard versus soft. It's a creative use of inconsistency. There is no amp simulator that is even close. Even the newer versions of the real amp, while more consistent, lack its soul.

My point again being that analog lives and breathes, while digital tends to be a calculated cold dead fish. However cold dead fish make great sushi, I wouldn't want those suckers swimming on my plate. Everything has its appropriate place and use. Why try to make sushi taste like steak?

[dubwise]

Fair enough. They'll have to pry my pair of Leslies and my Ampeg V4B out of my cold, dead hands.
That's a live thing, though, for me.
Sims are good enough for my recordings.

[fuse]

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if they sold more hardware because of these plugins.

[cass anawaty]

fuse wrote on Fri, 23 January 2009 15:57

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if they sold more hardware because of these plugins.

That's not a bad point.  I'm a study in that--from UAD-1 emulations going back to the Mackie card days to actual hardware.  Once you have the revelation that they don't sound the same, it's easy to start saving.

[compasspnt]

People do love to convince themselves that they can do the same things with plug-ins as they could do with the hardware.

The more the GUI looks like the real thing...replete with logos, especially...the "better they sound."

Don't get me wrong, I have most of the UA plugs, Bobby Nathan's, etc., etc. There are some very good software products out there.


But I'm sorry, the really good analogue hardware boxes just do better work. There is just no debating that.


But for every one you buy, you only have one.


Makes it expensive, but worth it.


Nothing beats having both.