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Author Topic: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel  (Read 16809 times)

Careful Collapse

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 10:49:19 am »

Quote:

The majority of Israelis do not think or behave the way you myopically and ignorantly described above.
 I did not say the majority do.  I said a significant fraction do (perhaps I should have said "portion" instead of "population".)  Such as polls "suggesting half of Jewish Israelis do not believe Arab citizens of Israel should have equal rights." or "In another poll, almost 75% of Jewish youths said Arabs were less intelligent and less clean than Jews." (  http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_7136000/713 6068.stm)

I was, of course, referring to refugee camps and the massacres taken place in many of them, check points, re-occupation of Palestinian territory, and other dehumanizing efforts that have happened and continue to happen.

Quote:

A significant palestinian population has been subjected to brainwashing from an early age and were raised to hate Jews and Israel; there's substantial evidence of that.

 Yep.  I am not presenting the same false dichotomy of good side vs. bad side that you are.  However they also live in poverty they have no control of and repression which have always resulted in this sort of behavior.  (I'm disappointed I even have to say this, but I am not implying an explanation is an excuse, because it is not.)

Quote:

On the contrary, Israel has been surprisingly restrained; their armed forces could have obliterated the enemies (causing tens of thousands of deaths in the process) but Israel chooses always to minimize death.


Yet we have the Human Rights Watch saying

"We're not ready to say that there were definite laws-of-war violations, but the weaponry used and the manner in which it has been used in such a densely populated area, together with the high civilian casualties, raises a huge flag for us"

and EU aid chief saying

"One simple fact, acknowledged and denounced by established experts in the field, is that Israel is not respecting international humanitarian law"

I could go on.  In any case, the data is as follows: 4 dead Israelis, 900 dead Palestinians.

What's with the discrepancy?

Quote:

But do not forget that Hamas and other organizations have sworn to kill all Jews and to destroy Israel, and they put that as the first priority, above the actual creation of a state for them. Hard to negotiate under such circumstances.


Again, to suggest that "with nearly 900 people killed, some 3,400 wounded and tens of thousands displaced" is NOT going to result in *more* decent Palestinians turning to hatred is absurd.  Christ, that's pretty much what Hamas *wanted*, and they *gave* it to them.  The cycle repeats itself.  Pick any "But he started it!" you'd like, the history of voilence practically insists both sides' seemingly unquenchable desire for revenge and retribution is not going to lead to anything good.  

Quote:

Please note that at the time the above was said, there was no talk of a 'palestinian people' amongst arabs (nor by anyone else)
 Who cares?  Divisions of people are arbitrary anyway.  All it takes to become a "people" is for it to be widely agreed upon at some point in time.  The fact that they are being called a "Palestinian people" by everyone in the press legitimizes that they are a people, no more or no less discreet than any other group of people.

Quote:

It is sad to note that until today the priority of the so-called pro-palestine terrorists is still the destruction of Israel and not the creation of their state.

 According to NPR, Hamas and other islamic fundamentalist unmovable anti-Israel crazies were not the ones in power until Arafat was exiled and a vacuum of sorts was created.
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YZ

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2009, 11:10:06 am »

Bill_Urick wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 11:24


In general, I've always been very supportive of Israel and I've never understood why the political left has not.



I can't say much about the political left in the USA, but here is my view of the reasons the left in Europe and Latin America aren't 'supportive' of Israel now:

Europe was generally pro-Israel until 1967, so were most Latin-American countries; The general feeling was that Israel was a young and frail country facing great national challenges, having to develop a barren, desertic piece of land, with a very decided and young population, a democratic regime with leaders that were thinkers, where socialism was advanced and communal farms abounded.

Amidst the cold war, Israel was a non-aligned country, having relations with East and West; the USSR was particularly interested and by the mid-1960s they were pushing for military co-operation, offering access to modern soviet weaponry accompanied by their 'military advisers' (a precursor to ingression in the soviet block); European Communist parties, notably the French and Italian, were openly friendly with Israel and often published supportive words on their newspapers.

Israel resisted the soviet advances diplomatically.

Then tensions with the neighboring nations began by 1965, culminating in the 1967 war; when it broke up, most of the European press was sure that Israel would be wiped out and published sorrowful articles about the 'end of a noble state'.

Then the unexpected happened: the mouse has roared... Israel won, against all odds.

After the Israeli victory, things changed; Israel put an end to the soviet's diplomatic advances, bitter feelings emerged with France (due to France's refusal to send, during the war, the Mirage fighters that Israel had bought and paid in advance), Israel went politically closer to the USA; the soviets, now closer to the Arab countries, realized that Israel was putting in effect the unthinkable: they were building a country were one could choose if he wanted to live in a capitalist society (the cities) or in a communist society (the Kibbutzim and Moshavim); this went against all communist thinking, no option should be possible and such a country could not be allowed to succeed, so they instructed their satellites (the Western Communist parties) to start bashing Israel and use all possible means of negative propaganda.

Sectors of the Catholic Church were also uneasy with the conquest of Jerusalem by Israel, the Pope went as far as stating that Jerusalem should be turned into an 'international free territory' not belonging to any nation; the Israeli conquest would upset the status quo carefully weaved between the church and the 'moors' over centuries of underground negotiations; the Jews now 'owned' the Holy City again and this was hard to swallow. This feeling affected the most the two extremes of the catholic Church: the most traditionalists and the left-wing 'progressive church', quite active in Latin America where they often harbored communist guerrillas.

Also, the question of the palestinians started to get more space in the international press, due to the soviet influence.

All of the above contributed to Europeans and Latin-Americans to become less and less supportive of Israel as time went by.

How it affected the north-american left, I can't say.





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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2009, 11:24:20 am »

Careful Collapse wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 13:49

According to NPR, Hamas and other islamic fundamentalist unmovable anti-Israel crazies were not the ones in power until Arafat was exiled and a vacuum of sorts was created.



Oh yes, only Israel is to blame for all evil that happens there.
It's all Israel's fault.
Always.



And is was very interesting to see which parts of my post you decided not to comment on.

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Jay Kadis

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 11:41:29 am »

At this point, there's plenty of blame to go around.  Until we get beyond pointing fingers and start figuring out solutions, nothing is going to change.

mgod

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 12:45:57 pm »

MDM, wrote on Mon, 12 January 2009 12:19


I like the comment he makes on Israel being born as a result of the Holocaust, and then Israel doing the same thing to Palestinians.

He quite clearly did NOT say that. You are putting your own thoughts into someone else's mouth.

zmix wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 06:00

Eno is not Jewish. The fact that his mother was in a Nazi concentration camp should not lead to that assumption. There were as many non Jews as there were Jews in the concentration camps. Some studies indicate that there were more non Jews killed in the camps.

I'd like to know from where you derive this factoid, Chuck - its a hell of an historical assertion. The total numbers killed by the Germans, including Russians starved to death and Allies killed in combat is enormous. But the concentration camps were a specific thing and this is an assertion I've never heard.

In the meantime, I've emailed Brian to see if he would care to confirm this assertion that his mother was in a camp.

But I think there's very little connection. I get his point, his and so many others - its an old canard - but I see it as a change of subject, and an easy one, a kind of lazy accusation. If southern Texas were bring bombed across the border from Mexico, I think that the US might do something about it, despite our long history of fucking around in there and the fact that most of the southern US used to be Mexico.

I hate to say it, but every time this war flares up the world gets up in arms about it in a way it simply don't bother itself with anywhere else. Why is Israel the sole exception? Do we give a fuck about Africa, or Kashmir?

Its up to each person who has such strong objections to the actions in this one specific region of the world to look inside themselves and ask themselves why they care more about Israel/Palestine than anywhere else.

The Palestinian people are as varied as the Israeli people are, and in most societies the right-wing controls the use of the military simply due to its interest in war - in maintaining and furthering war and in this case as everywhere else, in maintaining its own power through war. We have the same problem here, as does Eno's country.

"The Palestinians" will not stop shelling Israel until they have a civil war of their own (well, they already do, but one that stands a chance of resolving) and decide collectively to stop giving the Israeli right-wing an excuse to dominate at home. Who benefits? Hamas, Likud, and all the Arab states that have "the Palestinian issue" as a justification for all sorts of crap.

DS

PS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT1fI
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zmix

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2009, 01:15:12 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 12:45


zmix wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 06:00


Eno is not Jewish. The fact that his mother was in a Nazi concentration camp should not lead to that assumption. There were as many non Jews as there were Jews in the concentration camps. Some studies indicate that there were more non Jews killed in the camps.

I'd like to know from where you derive this factoid, Chuck - its a hell of an historical assertion. The total numbers killed by the Germans, including Russians starved to death and Allies killed in combat is enormous. But the concentration camps were a specific thing and this is an assertion I've never heard.



Dan,
It's true and sadly it's fading into history.  11+ million killed in the camps, 4-6 million Jews.

My father was in WWII as a medic in the US Army. His company (Thunderbirds) were the first to discover a concentration camp (Dachau).  Up until then it was widely believed that these camps were a propaganda myth.  As today, the US did nothing to intervene.  Then Dachau was liberated and everything began to change.

Here is a website set up by a (jewish, in case you're wondering) woman in LA, it features a few pages about the non jewish victims, but she is barely scratching the surface


Here is an early interview Eno gave with Lester Bangs in which he states:

"My mother is Flemish; she was in a concentration camp during the war, in labor camps mostly, actually building planes. She met my father at the end of the war and came to England, and in 1948 they gave birth to me."

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2009, 02:01:22 pm »

I've asked for his OK to post his reply to me.

DS
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zmix

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2009, 02:17:53 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 14:01

I've asked for his OK to post his reply to me.

DS



While you're waiting, here is a link to a book you may find interesting:

The Other Victims: First-Person Stories of Non-Jews Persecuted by the Nazis by Ina R. Friedman






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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2009, 02:38:09 pm »

None of this is news to me. I learned from my parents the famous phrase, "Juden, Negern und Zigeuner sind untermenschen." But I question your assertion that more non-Jews than Jews were murdered in the concentration camps.  I also think its a very weird assertion to make, as it suggests that we are making comparisons of relative victim-hood (which in itself is downright creepy), and further that this somehow has an impact on what is going on in the middle east at the moment. Since this is the implication I think cards should be on the table. Else-wise, it has no relevance.

DS
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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2009, 02:46:09 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 14:38

None of this is news to me. I learned from my parents the famous phrase, "Juden, Negern und Zigeuner sind untermenschen." But I question your assertion that more non-Jews than Jews were murdered in the concentration camps.  I also think its a very weird assertion to make, as it suggests that we are making comparisons of relative victim-hood (which in itself is downright creepy), and further that this somehow has an impact on what is going on in the middle east at the moment. Since this is the implication I think cards should be on the table. Else-wise, it has no relevance.

DS


Dan,

Please refer to the links above to validate the claim

   I was merely pointing out (to Bill) a common fallacy : to assume that the Holocaust was only a Jewish  tragedy.    I think any comments about relative victim-hood are unthinkable and very creepy.  However, I think that it's inhumane to ignore the other victims of the Holocaust, as well as the current US policy of ignoring the genocide happening today.  

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2009, 02:50:53 pm »

its all about land.

holy land.

they've fought for thousands of years, unfortunately it's not going to stop anytime soon. it's a shame, particularly because it is due to hate and a hunger for power which a select few on both sides are hell bent on increasing.

I know arabs and jews and they get along just dandy. There was a documentary released last year covering 2 families (mainly the mothers). One family was palestinian, the other jewish. The child of the palestinian family became a suicide bomber and ended up killing the child of the israeli family.

at the end of the film the two women met and talked and realized they had more in common than not. They talked and worked through animosity and came to the conclusion the conflict is perpetuated by those in power because they want more. it has nothing to do with the people dying.

just ego's and the propaganda they make.

my $.02
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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2009, 03:12:52 pm »

zmix wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 11:46

 However, I think that it's inhumane to ignore the other victims of the Holocaust, as well as the current US policy of ignoring the genocide happening today.
Which genocide is that?

I also find myself wondering where Egypt is in all this since 42 years ago Gaza was part of Egypt. Why are these 1.5 million people crammed into that little strip of land? It exists outside the borders of the original Mandate. How is it that it simply got  locked into that little bit of land and is supposed to be in conflict solely with Israel? It was part of Egypt, not Palestine, until the 67 war, so where are the Egyptians? Does Hamas send rockets over the border into Sinai? For that matter it was Jordanians who drove their Arab brothers back across the Jordan in 48 after telling them to fight "the Jews", so do they send rockets from the West Bank into Jordan?

DS
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Berolzheimer

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2009, 04:24:19 pm »

It's only mildly on topic but this exchange reminded me of an article my niece wrote last year:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080609/tevah

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2009, 05:28:10 pm »

Great piece.

DS

For the truly interested:

http://www.fcnl.org/middle_east/
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zmix

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Re: Brian Eno : Truth About Israel
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2009, 07:16:48 pm »

Berolzheimer wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 16:24

It's only mildly on topic but this exchange reminded me of an article my niece wrote last year:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080609/tevah





What a great article... has she written more about it?
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