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[bob ebeling]

It's like an intervention.  First the addict has to hit rock bottom.  

[Eric H.]

Martin Kantola wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 15:04

Replacing the cable and PSU should not affect the sound at all if done properly. In fact it's probably a good thing only, unless you are a collector.

The problem is exactly that. For the replacement to be proper.

[Fig]

compasspnt wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 10:48

the COMPANIES that hired the engineers were often the ones leading the sidetracking. Many of the engineers would have been very happy to continually live in the tube and transformer world, and take things further and further along a good road.

Yup.  There would be no shortage of the real parts had they had a need to keep making them rather than cost reducing them.

Having left one of those companies myself in the past year-and-a-half, Terry, your statement is soooooo true.

If half the marketing budgets went to development... oh don't get me started!

Fig

[Andy Simpson]

Martin Kantola wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 16:19

bob ebeling wrote on Mon, 12 January 2009 23:01 Amen Martin. Thanks Bob! I'm sorry if I steered the thread slightly off topic, but to me it's a big deal. When the last VF14s and AC701s and original M7s are gone, what then? We have to make sure there's something new, and it can't be a compromise sound wise. While I agree that microphone design was nearly perfected decades ago from a musical point of view, there's a lot of work to be done. Can't help feeling the engineers got seriously sidetracked by things such as solid state, phantom power and miniaturization...

...and bandwidth and S/N.

...and the most useful part of the new generation is 'side-tracked' with the past - tubes, transformers and tape.

Oops.

A psychoacoustic perspective is most useful to put the past, present & future in perspective and this is missing from the industry in general.

Andy

[bob ebeling]

Andy, I'd like to hear more on a psychoacoustic perspective.

[seedyunderbelly.com]

Nick Sevilla wrote on Fri, 09 January 2009 12:22

(...) I got a response from Telefunken USA, and they believe, based on my needs, that I should buy a new mic, and not risk the old one.

Hi Nick,
I think what Tele USA told you is COMPLETE BOLLOCKS--  If they can hop in the time machine and show their mics last as well as the old ones did then maybe they have something...

There are some great new mics out there, yet the old classics when working properly are still regarded as the best you can get.

imo These (vintage mics) usually work.  Certainly there are horror stories but you can:

1.  Get the best example you can find.

2.  Get it set up by the best person you can find.  

3.   REPAIR it when it breaks..

4.   Find good spare parts.

This idea that you can not use old mics everyday is related to it being scary to some to fix them.  I see you have the budget to do it though.  Be prepared to keep it going,  that is all.
People regularly comment on how many "broken" or "out of sorts" ones they have heard but they do not say the same about the flaky maintenance of the rest of the studio.  

My mics have needed much less work then my tape machine, my new PT rig and my new console.  The mics are way older and more stable, in fact. I know I have written this before  but it is like an AC30 or Marshall Plexi, after you fix all the things that go bad over time they tend to "restabilize" again.

I have purchased countless vintage mics and have had very few problems.
Finding parts can be more difficult when it is a VF14 or CK12,  but still doable.  Just be ready to jump when the parts come up.

FWIW the U47 copies Wunder etc. I have heard sound ok but were put down by my good orig's. And the M49 gets more use than any other at my place.  A
I like David Bock's mics also. I bought several U67's a few years ago they were new old stock, and have had zero problems. (The only problems were with the NEW power supplies.) I think you received good advice About Mike Nehra.  He can find these things  and Robert "crash" "Astroman" Has sent me several good KM54 etc.  

I think the amount of problems are exagerrated and the difficulty dealing with them also.

Good Luck!

j

[ricknroll]

teleric wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 04:07

The problem with the M49, which I've been looking for for 7 months now, is that those for sale are mostly M49 with re-skinned M7 with new PSU and probably new cable also. I don't know how they sound.

Given that M49s tend to sell for significantly less than U47s, C12s, and 251s, you could buy an M49 and easily afford to replace the reskinned capsule with a new Neumann KK47 and still have money leftover to send the mic to your favorite mic tech.

When I bought my M49, it cost less than the Wunder CM49; I find this interesting because many of the current crop of U47-inspired mics I've seen are a lot cheaper than real U47s.

[seedyunderbelly.com]

I like the M49's with K47's anyway  and you can still find older ones if you do not want new ones..

j

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi seedyunderbelly,

I know they want to sell their new mics.

The guy from Telefunken did have to say the mic I was looking at was in really good condition but in need of repairs.. did not state what it was. Fletcher gave good marks ot the person I was dealing with, and I did not feel in the end he was pushin their mics, although he did. It was just that I expect to use the mic i buy, and that is what made the guy state that I should then get a new one, instead of the one offered for sale.

In the end, I did not go for it, but it was not what the Telefunken guy said, it was more about the attitude of the seller :

He did not want to tell me anything about the history of the microphone, including who he bought it from, nor give me any valid references for credibility purposes. The dude was 27 years old, so that is why I asked for this. I don't see many 27 year olds who claim to have owned not one, but TWO of the ELAM251E mics. It just does not happen, IMO. Maybe it was correct, but it did not feel right. The guy was clearly nervous on the phone the time I talked to him, and he said stuff I normally hear when someone is trying too hard to make the sale happen, like "there are other buyers waiting for a decision from you" and "I don't understand why you want so many details on the mic, it's the real deal"... etc...

I have used the U47's in the past and they are like tanks. although I have taken great care while using them, I have only seen two that just did not work right from the get - go, and the owners looked like they did not take care of those too well, nor cared much if they did not work. Very sad.

I will talk at some point with Mike Nehra, as I continue my search for some wonderful mic(s).

Cheers

[Barry Hufker]

Does "Astroman" Robert still sell audio gear?  I bought stuff from him years ago but haven't heard a peep since.  Has he updated his website?

Barry

[seedyunderbelly.com]

He Sure Does.  He goes by 'Alphaville777' on ebay.

[seedyunderbelly.com]

Hi Again Nick,

I would be more careful with an Elam Because of the CK12 and the Plastic inside..
It is worth more to get it from someone reputable, Allthough My ebay Mic "risks" Have resulted all perfect.  I do feel out the sellers like you did --  Any "Hard sell" like that I would run!

Have found killer M49/C24/K47/KK54/C12  on ebay though..

Call Mike and tell him your "range"  that you are ready  and exactly what you want  I would bet he calls you inside of 2 or 3 months..

-j

[Nick Sevilla]

Thanks Seedyunderbelly.

Cheers,

Nick

[Andy Simpson]

bob ebeling wrote on Wed, 14 January 2009 16:43

Andy, I'd like to hear more on a psychoacoustic perspective.

Hi Bob,

This is where we find many of the aspects of microphone performance which are most critical and least successful, such as 'depth' (see '3d-ness' thread over in 'whatever works'), 'timbre' / 'tone' and various forms of distortion.

Specifically, the fields I am currently most interested in are auditory masking, equal loudness, polar performance, intermodulation distortion and the various interactions of the combination.

For example, when we record a drum kit or orchestra, what kind of distortion can we expect from the microphone, at what frequency, at what SPL, and at what threshold 'below' the fundamental(s)?

How does our listening level affect our perception of this distortion?

How does the distortion of our listening system compare to that of the microphone, can one mask the other?

If the drum-kit is playing at 130dB SPL, with the mics at 1m, and my monitoring is running at 85dB SPL, is the threshold of audible distortion set by the microphone or the monitor speaker?

How does this relationship change with differing monitor loudness?

How does this complex relationship look according to equal loudness/threshold of audibility contours?

Why are so few microphone manufacturers quoting IMD? and why are those who do, quoting it in percentage when this reference scale is far from our perception (which is log)?

If the average condenser mic is delivering intermodulation distortion less than 40dB below the fundamental on a 120dB drum recording, how audible is it?

What is more audible, 0.5%IMD @18k or 0.25%IMD @2k?

What is the relationship between the perception of scale, the perception of distance and the perception of loudness?

Given that many of the 'vintage' mics are somewhat band-limited, what effect might this have on the possible IM distortion?

What happens to the perception of depth when we alter the tuned-resonance frequency & directional characteristics of these old mics?

...are some of the questions I ask myself.

Andy

[mullard]

From my own experience so far, it was indeed not easy to find authentic vintage U47 in great shape. Many of them have been modified to an extent that they lost some of their original character. Different tubes, re-skinned capsules and different parts are quite common.

Also, in a shootout, one of five was a real winner, two were good and two not very good.
Wunder's take on U47 is a good mic on its own, but different from the best U47 I had a chance to try.

Wagner's U47 is viable and very interesting option.
It's not a clone, but very intelligent implementation of experience, knowledge and passion into one product he knows well. I'm ready to stop my search with Wagner's mic; he supplied several spare tubes, so I have peace of mind for decades. I can't differenciate it from original U47- neither solo or in mixes, so I can advocate for it strongly.

Telefunken USA had several offerings in ELAM 251 and so far their Vintage series with original AKG CK12, transformer and 701k tube is absolutelly fabulous sounding. Pricewise it's close to high market prices of ELAMs, but it is a newly made mic with warranty and sound of the best authentic 251, in my opinion.

Actually, among all these oldtimers my Brauner VM1 KHE is still the winner, I like its clean, high resolution sound without being harsh, sterile or whatever.

These 3 mics for me are the Holy Grail and were all manufactured within the last decade!

As I'm not a collector, and consider myself a sane person, I absolutely don't care about crazy offers for vintage mics and gears nowdays. Lot of bluffs, fames and stories.

Go and make music !