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Author Topic: mastering  (Read 9446 times)

Patrik T

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Re: mastering
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2009, 02:15:50 PM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 18:00

Unless it really is THAT compressed, to a point that the ME really has no headroom to do much more than stare at it..


Who stares at music?

Do things look compressed?


I have used (analog) compressors on already compressed material.

Without staring at something else than the speakers, at most.

Maybe people are paralyzed by the looks of digital waveforms?


And regarding headroom...if someone want/need to print their mixes at -0.1 dB or whatever, I would not mind.


Best Regards
Patrik
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: mastering
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2009, 02:53:38 PM »

Patrik T wrote on Wed, 14 January 2009 11:15

Nick Sevilla wrote on Tue, 13 January 2009 18:00

Unless it really is THAT compressed, to a point that the ME really has no headroom to do much more than stare at it..


Who stares at music?

Do things look compressed?


I have used (analog) compressors on already compressed material.

Without staring at something else than the speakers, at most.

Maybe people are paralyzed by the looks of digital waveforms?


And regarding headroom...if someone want/need to print their mixes at -0.1 dB or whatever, I would not mind.

Best Regards
Patrik


No, I meant the tape reels, as they turn in the tape machine.

Of course the Me would stare at it, listening to it would hurt his ears...

Cheers
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0dbfs

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Re: mastering
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2009, 03:16:14 PM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 14 January 2009 10:39

odd.  i haven't worked with a single ME that's requested "no 2 buss processing."

you guys really think Ted Jensen is going to call you up and say, "hey man, you should know better then to send me compressed mixes........"??????

come on.........pick any "well established" ME, look at his/her credits, look up who mixed the records and do the math.  

i highly doubt these people are asking TLA, CLA, rich costey, bob clearmountain, andy wallace, Mike Shipley, Skidd Mills, and countless others to remove their 2 buss processing.



+1 on that!
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j.hall

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Re: mastering
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2009, 05:10:31 PM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Wed, 14 January 2009 10:53



This is why I try to accomodate the ME, and do not use stereo buss processing. I try hard to make my mixes work without needing "glue" at the mix buss. I try to make the mixes work on their own, so that the ME can do a good job of making an album out of the collection of songs (not an easy task, sometimes)

Cheers


unless you have some technique i don't know (entirely possible) for getting an uncompressed mix to stay 95% the same (re: balances only) i just don't see how it's possible to not be consistently disappointed with the masters you get back, from every ME on the planet.

i've apprenticed under two different, highly skilled mixers, and i work with, on a regular basis, one the best ME's around.  i've been unable to find a single valid argument supporting no 2 buss processing and still getting my same balances back.  in fact, the ME i work with almost exclusively, was the first person to push me into 2 buss processing............................

while i'm not trying to pick a fight, i just fail to see how my work flow, which happens to be very similar to the workflow of MANY other top notch mixers (not calling myself top notch by any stretch) could be "wrong" at the mastering phase without any ME's putting up a huge protest.


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bob ebeling

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Re: mastering
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2009, 09:56:15 PM »

There's different approaches.  

One approach is to do the whole mix with the 2-bus comp on.  In this approach your balances end up dependent on having that comp there.  Take it off and cringe.

Another approach is mix without it and then do your own little 'mastering' at the end.  You'll have to dial the
2-buss comp in to get it right and you might have to go back and shift a few balances on your mix (kick and bass).

I use both approaches.  If clients are actively overdubbing all while I'm mixing, I'm gonna wait to put the bus comp on, so probably be approach 2.
If it's in the can and 100% mix time, I'll go with approach #1.

Ted Jenson never said a word about Alan Smart C1 smack action on mixes.  Neither did the other guys at Sterling.  
If it's used correctly it works wonderfully.

The whole thing about an ME telling someone to go back and print without is a very legit issue, it just depends on if someone overcooked it or not.  
I do mastering for local projects, a few smaller national things, but on the local tip, guys are always bringing in stuff that is absolute zero on the dynamic scale, crushed to death.  If they don't 'fix the mix', there is no magical expander that can make it work.  Often this is a gain structure issue too though.

The new Metallica record was done by Ted Jenson and every one hates it for the crushed terd sound of it.  Jenson was quoted as saying that that was done to it before he got it.  
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: mastering
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2009, 12:03:34 PM »

Hi J,

There is different approaches to it. I have never stated what you do is wrong.

In my experience, I've had the ME's request sometimes, mixes with no processing on the mix buss. But also I've had no requests.

Nowadays, I try to stay with two mastering houses exclusively, one on the West Coast, and one on the East Coast. Both don't ask me for this, just that the mixes be approved by the powers that be before they get them, which is always the case.

Mostly, the ME's in encountered requesting the removal or non-use of stereo buss processing, were not as experienced as the ones I trust now. But since I do not get to pick the ME sometimes, I have to be accommodating.

But that said, I do try to make the mix happen without the Stereo buss processing. That is just my style. More organic sounding, more dynamic range, less loud. and, my clients like it. most are very old school and have been making recrds for 25-45 years, so are very familiar with the album making process, and what records sounded like in the old days.

I rarely work with artists that are new at it, and no more unsigned artists "looking for a deal". I'm lucky in that aspect, where I do not have to take in whomever calls anymore. I can pick and choose.

Cheers
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: mastering
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2009, 12:06:36 PM »

bob ebeling wrote on Wed, 14 January 2009 18:56

There's different approaches.  

One approach is to do the whole mix with the 2-bus comp on.  In this approach your balances end up dependent on having that comp there.  Take it off and cringe.

Another approach is mix without it and then do your own little 'mastering' at the end.  You'll have to dial the
2-buss comp in to get it right and you might have to go back and shift a few balances on your mix (kick and bass).

I use both approaches.  If clients are actively overdubbing all while I'm mixing, I'm gonna wait to put the bus comp on, so probably be approach 2.
If it's in the can and 100% mix time, I'll go with approach #1.

Ted Jenson never said a word about Alan Smart C1 smack action on mixes.  Neither did the other guys at Sterling.  
If it's used correctly it works wonderfully.

The whole thing about an ME telling someone to go back and print without is a very legit issue, it just depends on if someone overcooked it or not.  
I do mastering for local projects, a few smaller national things, but on the local tip, guys are always bringing in stuff that is absolute zero on the dynamic scale, crushed to death.  If they don't 'fix the mix', there is no magical expander that can make it work.  Often this is a gain structure issue too though.

The new Metallica record was done by Ted Jenson and every one hates it for the crushed terd sound of it.  Jenson was quoted as saying that that was done to it before he got it.  


+1 for the Me requesting a mix without the 2 buss processing. It sometimes is needed...

Cheers
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j.hall

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Re: mastering
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2009, 12:13:02 PM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Thu, 15 January 2009 11:03



Mostly, the ME's in encountered requesting the removal or non-use of stereo buss processing, were not as experienced as the ones I trust now.
Cheers


exactly!


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T. Mueller

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Re: mastering
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2009, 05:10:49 PM »

Quote:


Mostly, the ME's in encountered requesting the removal or non-use of stereo buss processing, were not as experienced as the ones I trust now. But since I do not get to pick the ME sometimes, I have to be accommodating.

I rarely work with artists that are new at it, and no more unsigned artists "looking for a deal".


I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you'd choose to not work with "new" artists, but go ahead and work with an ME that, as BB said, has their priorities screwed up.
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j.hall

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Re: mastering
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2009, 05:26:22 PM »

i'd smile for months if i never had to work with a new artist ever again.  by "new artist" i'm implying new to the studio, or very "green" at making a record.

then again, i'm just happy to not be sitting in a cube 5 days a week.
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: mastering
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2009, 11:25:32 AM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 14 January 2009 14:10

unless you have some technique i don't know (entirely possible) for getting an uncompressed mix to stay 95% the same (re: balances only) i just don't see how it's possible to not be consistently disappointed with the masters you get back, from every ME on the planet.

SNIP


Hi J,

And there is the "trick"... staying very consistent from mix to mix.

There are several things I do, when mixing an album :

1. Leave plenty of dynamic range. I usually have the following:

a.- Peaks at -6dBFS to -5 dBFS maximum.

b.- RMS levels at -20 to -22 dBFS maximum. This means having a dynamic range of about 17 to 14 dBFS. This can usually cover most dynamic changes an artist can throw in there.

c.- If the instrumentation stays very similar (same bass and bass player, guitar, etc...) then I make sure I find the best sounds for the WHOLE ALBUM. This sometimes means going back and remixing a song or two, once I get going.

d.- If the instrumentation is NOT the same, then I find the most common denominator, like the lead voice, and mix that one with similar levels across the album. rarely do I find an artist that wants the lead vocal loud on one song, then buried on another. Even if the sound of the lead voice is different, I find mixing it at the same levels, helps in the perspective of the other instruments as I go across the whole album.

This gives me enough dynamic range to both have loud and soft moments in the songs, if they have them, as well as 'pokey' hits that are exciting to the human ear. this is even after the Me gets his / her hands on it.

This mixing approach has it's compromises sometimes, but so far I have not found problems with this approach.

In the end, the Me has an easier time, if he / she knows the levels are consistent from song to song. the Textures may change, but overall the ME knows where to aim for in getting the final levels and EQ easier this way.

The reason I end up doing this is twofold:

1.- The Artist likes consistency. when the artist can listen to an album's rough mixes and be able to listen to the lead vocal and other elements in a consistent manner, the mixing seems to disappear, and they can more easily spot issues with arrangement, etc.. than with wildly varying levels on the more important instruments on the songs.

2.- Most MEs I have talked with, the number one complaint is : no consistent mixes across the album. The MEs I know, do not like to see an album that is a collection of singles, unrelated to each other, but instead like to see an album, with gems in it.

Cheers
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j.hall

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Re: mastering
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2009, 11:29:57 AM »

thanks for running that down for me.  makes sense.

i go for consistency as well, just in a much different way.


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Nick Sevilla

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Re: mastering
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2009, 11:41:04 AM »

T. Mueller wrote on Sun, 18 January 2009 14:10

Quote:


Mostly, the ME's in encountered requesting the removal or non-use of stereo buss processing, were not as experienced as the ones I trust now. But since I do not get to pick the ME sometimes, I have to be accommodating.

I rarely work with artists that are new at it, and no more unsigned artists "looking for a deal".


I guess I'm having trouble understanding why you'd choose to not work with "new" artists, but go ahead and work with an ME that, as BB said, has their priorities screwed up.


Hi T.

I don't like working with "new" or "green" artists. here's why:

1.- They do not know what they want.
2.- They ask me for production guidance, only to toss that out, and complain that I'm "misleading them" ... whatever.
3.- They cannot afford to endlessly re-record stuff, until they "find their sound / voice / etc..." but they treat the studio as if it was there to create their sound and songs for them... yeah right.
4.- They want me to "make them famous"... yeah right, that'll happen, let me just push the "famous" button over here...

I'm sure there might be good green artists out there, I just have bad luck finding any which:

a.- Have their songs together. Huge item.
b.- Can play their songs from beginning to end without screwing up. (big one too).
c. Can afford to record anything at all, without begging for free time / extra free work / free cigarettes, whatever. It gets annoying after a while.
And as far as working with MEs with their priorities screwed up... that is totally a personal opinion.

I have yet to mention which ME's have mastered my stuff. let me just say most of them have awards, plus a lot of years doing it. So I don't think they are screwed up. On the contrary I respect their views, and if they want a different mix version, or 2 buss processing off, then I do it. They have more knowledge than me, they must have a valid reason for asking for anything they need.

After all, we ALL want the album to be the best it can be, regardless of personal tastes, opinions, etc... I like to think I am working in a TEAM situation. So even if I happen to love a mix, if it helps to sell more that I have to change it somewhat, then I do it. This is not so much a "sell out" per se, but after all, the Artist is there to make money with their product, and if my mix is not the best one possible, then it needs to get better.

Cheers
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imdrecordings

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Re: mastering
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2009, 12:30:33 PM »

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T. Mueller

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Re: mastering
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2009, 04:24:46 PM »

Quote:



Hi T.

I don't like working with "new" or "green" artists. here's why:

1.- They do not know what they want.
2.- They ask me for production guidance, only to toss that out, and complain that I'm "misleading them" ... whatever.
3.- They cannot afford to endlessly re-record stuff, until they "find their sound / voice / etc..." but they treat the studio as if it was there to create their sound and songs for them... yeah right.
4.- They want me to "make them famous"... yeah right, that'll happen, let me just push the "famous" button over here...

I'm sure there might be good green artists out there, I just have bad luck finding any which:

a.- Have their songs together. Huge item.
b.- Can play their songs from beginning to end without screwing up. (big one too).
c. Can afford to record anything at all, without begging for free time / extra free work / free cigarettes, whatever. It gets annoying after a while.
And as far as working with MEs with their priorities screwed up... that is totally a personal opinion.

I have yet to mention which ME's have mastered my stuff. let me just say most of them have awards, plus a lot of years doing it. So I don't think they are screwed up. On the contrary I respect their views, and if they want a different mix version, or 2 buss processing off, then I do it. They have more knowledge than me, they must have a valid reason for asking for anything they need.

After all, we ALL want the album to be the best it can be, regardless of personal tastes, opinions, etc... I like to think I am working in a TEAM situation. So even if I happen to love a mix, if it helps to sell more that I have to change it somewhat, then I do it. This is not so much a "sell out" per se, but after all, the Artist is there to make money with their product, and if my mix is not the best one possible, then it needs to get better.

Cheers


Yeah, no worries.  I got your point.  I was referring directly to the comment about using inexperienced MEs, and I guess I was trying to highlight the fact that you've probably learned to not work with new MEs just like you'd rather not work with new artists, because experienced "team members" (as you wisely say) all know what the end goal is, and it's not concerns with the points listed above.  Man, that was a long sentence.

Cheers back!

I wonder what the comment was that got deleted...
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