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Author Topic: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?  (Read 3746 times)

eightyeightkeys

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The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« on: November 26, 2008, 03:35:55 PM »

I'm talking more about LF drivers, of course. Can you over-do it in a small room ? Even with substantial trapping.

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Dave T.
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 04:30:37 PM »

1- Yes

2- Yes

I'm afraid most 'traps' are not linear in their behaviour with SPL variations. They can only convert so much energy, and there is only so much treatment you can use in a small room, on top of all the other problems encountered in smaller rooms (higher variations in pressure points etc)

You do the maths... Smile

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Thomas Jouanjean
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eightyeightkeys

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 03:47:43 PM »

This is probably a question without a straight answer, but, are there any guidelines that one can go by.

For example :
a room up to x number of sq ft - use a 6" driver max.
a room up to xy sq ft - use an 8" LF driver max.
over xyz sq ft -  use whatever you like. Soffit mounted etc...

If there aren't any guidelines, why not ? It seems as though you could calculate what size of room would support a specific size of monitor. No ?
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Dave T.
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 10:19:38 AM »

Dave @ D D wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 14:47

This is probably a question without a straight answer, but, are there any guidelines that one can go by.

For example :
a room up to x number of sq ft - use a 6" driver max.
a room up to xy sq ft - use an 8" LF driver max.
over xyz sq ft -  use whatever you like. Soffit mounted etc...

If there aren't any guidelines, why not ? It seems as though you could calculate what size of room would support a specific size of monitor. No ?


It all depends on how your room is treated. I can calculate rather accurately how much a room can take if it's a design I'm working on for ex, because I obviously have a very precise idea of what's going on in there: the shape, what exact type of treatment is in, where and how much of it, how it behaves etc.

Also in the end, when you've reached a certain level in quality, speaker choice is more a question of taste, and eventhough I recommend what I think would work best in a particular room, the client decides in the end. Some may go with something I think is too big, and still be very happy with them.

My *rule* (<- add a few grains of salt) for the average room with some absorptive treatment at least:

Under 16m
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Thomas Jouanjean
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Oldfart

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2008, 09:09:47 PM »

[quote title=Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 10:19]
Dave @ D D wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 14:47



Under 16m
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Denis Paquette

Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2008, 05:59:36 AM »

Oldfart wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 20:09

So based on this...... I gather that for me to consider a pair of Duntech Princess for mastering, in my well treated 22deep x14wide x 8high isn't a good idea?

Oldfart


Well, I did say it is relative, not strict "rule". Don't take it too seriously! See for yourself...
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Thomas Jouanjean
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Steve Hudson

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2008, 08:44:17 AM »

Thomas - do you mean to describe the area of the room (square meters) or the volume (cubic meters)?
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EP

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 12:20:30 PM »

It seems like a few different issues are being discussed in this post; anyway I'm a little confused  Confused

1) The original question related to the size of the LF driver thats OK per a given room volume, and also the fact that smaller rooms have limited room for bass trapping.

This sounds to me like a question of LF extension (how low the speakers play) and/or SPL (how loudly they play at a given frequency). IF this is the case then the size of the LF driver wouldn't seem to be a primary issue. The implication is that a 15" woofer inherently excites a room more than a 6" woofer even if the spl and frequency responses are the same, which doesn't make much sense to me. (and some small driver systems play deeper than other larger driver systems..usually at lower peak spls but nonetheless)


2) Thomas discussed HOW you listen given a room size; nearfield, midfield etc. (which does tend to impact driver size, but again not directly ime)

So what are we talking about here?

Cheers,

Erik
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 06:47:12 PM »

EP wrote on Sat, 29 November 2008 11:20


2) Thomas discussed HOW you listen given a room size; nearfield, midfield etc. (which does tend to impact driver size, but again not directly ime


It does tend to impact the size of speaker drivers directly, and the SPL at which you listen. 85dB @ 1,2 is not at all the same as 85dB @ 2,4m. This is in a way all the same subject.

AFAIC, this is one of the many grey areas in acoustics, where things aren't always clearly poiting at one definitive direction. More on that tomorrow...
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Thomas Jouanjean
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eightyeightkeys

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 06:49:41 PM »

hmm...that's all interesting stuff.

Yes, Erik, I'm talking about how a certain size LF driver/pair will excite a given size room at a given listening level. Let's say 80-85 db (pretty standard & also since I don't like to listen any louder)

After all, a room is a speaker cabinet of a sort and the internal dampening of this "cabinet" does have it's limits. So, a smaller LF driver could be more accurate in a smaller room.

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Dave T.
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EP

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2008, 03:16:17 AM »

Thomas Jouanjean wrote on Sat, 29 November 2008 15:47

It does tend to impact the size of speaker drivers directly, and the SPL at which you listen. 85dB @ 1,2 is not at all the same as 85dB @ 2,4m. This is in a way all the same subject. -snip

This I do understand, and it may be the majority of times that a loudspeaker designer will choose a smaller driver and cabinet for the nearfield. That said the issue stated here is freq/spl/distance, not driver size. If for example you want 33hz/86db/3m you could choose a 12" woofer (for its efficiency or whatever) vs an 8". I'm not saying you should, that is a speaker design decision, just trying to clarify the issue...

Dave @ D D wrote on Sat, 29 November 2008 15:49


snip- After all, a room is a speaker cabinet of a sort and the internal dampening of this "cabinet" does have it's limits. So, a smaller LF driver could be more accurate in a smaller room.


Again I keep thinking its more about hz/spl/m. 30hz is 30hz. A small woofer is not inherently faster or more accurate, it comes down to T/S parameters and implementation.

Or am I missing the point?

Cheers,

Erik
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 06:34:45 AM »

EP wrote on Sun, 30 November 2008 02:16

The original question related to the size of the LF driver thats OK per a given room volume, and also the fact that smaller rooms have limited room for bass trapping

-snip-

Again I keep thinking its more about hz/spl/m. 30hz is 30hz. A small woofer is not inherently faster or more accurate, it comes down to T/S parameters and implementation.

Or am I missing the point?

Cheers,

Erik



Like I said, there is no clear answer to that question, but some hints about the directions to choose.

Woofer size will partly determine how low the speaker goes - I've never heard a 6" woofer really efficient at reproducing 40Hz. But to hear 40Hz clean and clear in a small room is a pretty challenging plan too.

LF driver size is not a factor important enough on it's own that it can tell you what to buy - but it's an indication like many other factors. The actual footprint of the speaker is important too, it's overall design etc.

Also, the bigger the speakers, the further away you'll need to be from them for the sound to be coherent. I can't imagine sitting 1,2m from ATC300 or Augspurger mains.

Then you have the room factor (the most important one), it's size, design and behaviour.

It is a sum of a lot of factors, and you can't concentrate on just one of them like LF driver and generalize from there.

So all in all, to the original question asked by Dave: yes it's easy to overdo it in a small room because of the constraints of such rooms (treatment, high pressure points, usable surface of the room determines the maximum distance from the speakers etc) even with substantial trapping.

But that needs to be assessed on a per room basis, there is no clear rule that can be applied to all rooms. It's just too many factors in the equation and too many grey areas.

Just try, listen and use common sense which is a pretty good start.
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Thomas Jouanjean
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Thomas Jouanjean

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Re: The proper size monitor for the size of your room ?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 05:10:24 PM »

Steve Hudson wrote on Sat, 29 November 2008 07:44

Thomas - do you mean to describe the area of the room (square meters) or the volume (cubic meters)?


Here I meant the area, as a quick indication of the usable/practical space of the room.

Though it's true that generally speaking in acoustics it's better to talk in terms of volume Smile
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Thomas Jouanjean
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