Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[jimlongo]

The "pension obligations" do cripple the big three in regards to their current situation, especially vis-a-vie Honda and Toyota - since we're throwing conspiracies around, I'm beginning to think that this is all being set up as a way to run away from pension promises made to lifers at GM.  

Knowing many of them, i've always marveled at how well they're treated in retirement for a lifetime of work that few of us would relish.  If it happens to disappear or become greatly reduced through some sort of "bail-out" of their pension plan it will make for a lot of pissed off old men and women.

[rnicklaus]

Pensions are covered by government insurance.  If GM goes down, the ongoing pension obligations will be picked up by the government.  

No matter what happens, it's going to cost the government a lot of money.

[jimlongo]

rnicklaus wrote on Wed, 12 November 2008 12:16

Pensions are covered by government insurance.  If GM goes down, the ongoing pension obligations will be picked up by the government.   No matter what happens, it's going to cost the government a lot of money.

Didn't know that.  In that case it's even more imperative for government to make it work isn't it?

[PookyNMR]

cerberus wrote on Tue, 11 November 2008 21:56

PookyNMR wrote on Mon, 10 November 2008 18:43 I'd put money on Ford and GM being out of business by the end of the year. ford have secured adequate lines of credit; they will not go under in the next 12 months.

Look at their stock price.  Look at the 5 year graph, the 10 year graph.  They're at under $2 now.  If they lose much more value on their stock price, they're done.

[jimlongo]

Ford, except for periods of irrational exuberance has long been a $2 stock


GM on the other hand has declined from about $60 to $2

[RSettee]

Time to buy stock in GM!!!

2 dollars. Yikes.

The thing about mega conglomerates like GM, is that they've bought out so many companies and subdivisions (think of all the sub-lines that they own), that those lines will go down with the entire thing. Undoubtedly, there's some of their divisions that are doing better than others, but their worst divisions are probably losing them ridiculous amounts of money.

If those were all independent companies, you would have had better competition, better designing, better build quality. When it's one mega corporation, they obviously want things to be done a certain way. With independents, you're more likely to have better competition. GM has long been competing with themselves--trying to sell people a new vehicle every year, even though the one that they already have is perfectly fine; their own brands/ lines/ divisions competing against the high priced ads and promotions in their other brands/ lines/ divisions, etc. I mean, seriously. Why the hell would you buy out Pontiac, Cadillac, Chevy, Buick, Olds, etc. etc. etc, and then compete with yourself on it? They've been undermining themselves for years, if not decades.....they've been so worried about maximizing profits in all sectors of vehicle markets, that they've held back critical design and build evolution.

Chrysler, I shook my head when they bought Jeep, Daimler and other lines right now that i'm forgetting about. How do you get someone to want to buy the latest Jeep Grand Cherokee or whatever, when you're telling them to buy the new Dodge Dakota? Does that make any sense at all?

[ssltech]

RSettee wrote on Wed, 12 November 2008 18:51

Time to buy stock in GM!!! 2 dollars. Yikes.

That's about $2 more than they're actually worth at the moment...

The company's present debt obligation equals or exceeds their actual net value, which prompted one german share analyst this last weekend to declare their stock hitherforth to be actually worthless.

You can certainly "put your money to work for you" by buying shares in GM right now... -provided that the "work" which you need done involves the digging of an enormous hole.

Right now Mini are laying ALL production off for a month, as are other companies who produce comparatively in demand product... -That's how tight the market is right now, and so with GM's out-of-date product line, they're hopelessly behind the curve, with little chance of digging out, unless most of the top line of management are changed.

About nine years ago, my wife and I were eating breakfast alone at a table when Rick Wagoner asked if he could join us... For a 'petrosexual' such as myself this was like a wet dream, so I got to pick his mind a little and I decided that I thought I liked him. -This was when he was CEO of General Motors, shortly before he became chairman. -Since then he's fronted some utterly disasterous ideas, including -I'm sorry to opine- the Volt. -The fact that he has also misrepreented the economy and viability of the product, I consider to be beyond disingenuous.

Maybe I was way off in my judgment of the man, or perhaps he has been turned by those around him, or the practical realities of running the corporation... either or both are of course possible.

EDIT: -I know that a lot of people are quite turned on by the idea of "hybrids" and that they may logically conclude that the VOLT is a good idea. -I urge them to watch this clip and see just how well GM are doing with the Volt... then consider that at the concept launch, Rick Wagoner quoted 60-100 miles per gallon as the fuel consumption rate. -He made NO mention that this assumes that the vehicle FIRST uses up a full wall-charge, -a claim which is either ill-informed at best, or intentionally deceptive at worst.

Keith

[mgod]

And what about all those Prius batteries when they hit 100,000 miles? What happens to the batteries? Won't somebody please think of the batteries?

DS

[Strummer]

jimlongo wrote on Wed, 12 November 2008 10:33

The "pension obligations" do cripple the big three in regards to their current situation, especially vis-a-vie Honda and Toyota - since we're throwing conspiracies around, I'm beginning to think that this is all being set up as a way to run away from pension promises made to lifers at GM.   Knowing many of them, i've always marveled at how well they're treated in retirement for a lifetime of work that few of us would relish.  If it happens to disappear or become greatly reduced through some sort of "bail-out" of their pension plan it will make for a lot of pissed off old men and women.

My wife just took a lady to a meeting of GM retirees, GM is canceling their health insurance, giving them 300 bucks a month from the pension fund, letting them figure out the rest.

[rnicklaus]

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/planning-to-retire/2008/11/10/ge neral-motors-cuts-healthcare-for-retirees.html?s_cid=rss:pla nning-to-retire:general-motors-cuts-healthcare-for-retirees

General Motors Cuts Healthcare for Retirees
November 10, 2008 02:46 PM ET | Emily Brandon | Permanent Link | Print
Note to retirees: Don't count on your retiree health insurance from your company. Even if you have the agreement in writing, many retiree health insurance agreements include clauses giving the company the right to modify, suspend, revoke, terminate, or change the program at any time. And for many employers, that time has come.

General Motors plans to eliminate retiree healthcare coverage for approximately 100,000 white-collar retirees at the end of this year. Former factory workers, however, have union contracts that prevent the company from revoking coverage.

To help these retirees pay for their new coverage, GM is raising monthly pension payments by $300, the New York Times reports, which typically means $240 or $255 after taxes. Yes, there is always Medicare for retirees over age 65. But the extra $3,600 annually from GM, or perhaps $108,000 if a retiree collects that amount over 30 years, may or may not cover the lifetime out-of-pocket costs that Medicare recipients face. Retirement researchers estimate that a retired couple will need between $205,932 (Boston College Center for Retirement Research estimate) and $225,000 (Fidelity Investments estimate) to cover healthcare costs in retirement. And the Employee Benefit Research Institute says a couple will need a staggeringly high $635,000 to be almost completely sure of having enough money to cover all health bills beyond what Medicare covers, not even including the cost of long-term care.

GM is the latest in a string of companies—including Ford and Chrysler—to cut healthcare coverage for retirees. Companies that aren't cutting retiree health benefits completely may increase premiums and out-of-pocket costs. Kodak, for example, plans to shift health insurance costs to retirees over the next 10 years and phase out employer-paid coverage for dependents completely. The camera company also plans to cut dental coverage and life insurance for retirees beginning next year.

Given the ambiguous language that many retiree health insurance agreements are written in, many former employees will have little choice but to deal with the increased expenses. The U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., a government agency that insures private-sector pension plans and pays benefits to workers if a plan fails, does not insure health insurance benefits. Some Kodak retirees have taken to picketing outside the company's headquarters to protest the benefit cuts. So far, no additional changes to the retirement plan have been made public.

[PookyNMR]

jimlongo wrote on Wed, 12 November 2008 12:35

Ford, except for periods of irrational exuberance has long been a $2 stock GM on the other hand has declined from about $60 to $2

Yes, exactly.  Ford has been on the verge of bitting it numerous times over the past decade.  The company has long been in trouble.

GM is now in major trouble now too.  Many analysts I've read are predicting it's done.

ssltech wrote on Wed, 12 November 2008 18:26

That's about $2 more than they're actually worth at the moment... The company's present debt obligation equals or exceeds their actual net value, which prompted one german share analyst this last weekend to declare their stock hitherforth to be actually worthless.

[cerberus]

ssltech wrote on Wed, 12 November 2008 08:29

www.aronline.co.uk

thanks keith, i read part of it last night and will finish the rest tonight. fascinating
details abound, such as the wacky reason for the rover p6/tc 2000's quirky
front suspension design (and bolt-on front fenders).


jeff dinces

[ssltech]

Reminds me of a thread from Dave Hecht's forum a year or two ago:

linky

Peter Poyser's quoted text is enjoyable to read... I've been thinking a lot recently about Sir Michael Edwardes... Many recall him as a Thatcher appointment, but I think it was actually James Callahan who was Prime Minister when he was appointed.

About the only Detroit company head who I'd have doubts or reservations about jettisoning at the moment would be Mulalley, -the current chief at Ford... He was brought in by the Ford Family in an historically atypical (for the Ford family) show of humility, to try and turn around the company, after working wonders at Boeing... -He might have had a better shot if he'd have got started rather sooner, but it was not hs fault, nor Ford's, nor Boeing's...

Everyone else needs to go though, and if they don't want to end up like Austin/Morris/Rover/Leyland, then they need to start making changes FAST. -Personnel changes, organizational changes, PRODUCT changes.

When Lee Iaccoca headed the historic turnaround at Chrysler in the early 1980's, he began by taking a $1-a-year salary, because if he was pulling down eight figures per annum, he couldn't look workers in the face and tell them there was no job for them any more. -That needs to happen again now, whether you approve of Iaccoca or not. -He also knew that there were two ACES in the late stages of development, and ALMOST ready to be released:  the K-car and the minivan. -The K-car saved the company, and the minivan returned it to glorious levels of profitability... Without either of these two products, neither Iaccoca or anyone else would have been able to save them...

...So what does GM have almost ready for release to save itself?

PLEASE don't say "the Volt".

Keith

[ssltech]

...I just thought about the recent (about one year old) Cerberus takeover ownership of Chrysler, and suddenly it dawned on me...

It's an almost EXACT re-run of what happened to Rover. -Right down to the part played by "Ze Germans"...

In the mid-1990's, the struggling remains of Rover were sold to BMW, who (fronted by 'Burnt Pixierider') promised great things from a supposed synergy, (which was -frankly- a difficult sell to the Germans).

In the late 1990's, Daimler-Benz (fronted by 'Jerking Shrimpp') made the exact same sorts of (likewise spectacularly wide-of-the-mark) promises of wonderful things to come from their aquisition of Chrysler.

A few years after their purchase, when it became patently obvious that German engineering and British production lines were never destined to be a great combo, ze Germans at BMW were keen to sell... and -because no other established manufacturer would touch what they were selling- they ended up selling to a group of businessmen optimistically called the 'Phoenix Consortium'.

Likewise, a few years after their purchase, when it became patently obvious that German engineering and USA production lines were never destined to be a great combo, ze Germans at Daimler were keen to sell... and -because no other established manufacturer would touch what they were selling- they ended up selling to a group of businessmen called 'Cerberus'. (Okay, someone's going to have to let me in on the joke... exactly WHY do all of these over-optimistic consortia always name themselves after some never-existant creature from mythical lore?).

Three years ago, with market share plummeting, share prices having made their way down the toilet, past the U-bend, through the sewage-treatment plant and halfway out to sea, Rover (under Phoenix) finally collapsed under the weight of its own failed structure, having begged the government (who had already put up with more than enough of its crap while struggling to make it viable some twenty years earlier) for a bailout.

...Okay, the scene is set, and Cerberus has hired Bob Nardelli (who was forced out of Home Depot after decimating their share prices, shortly before being hired to work at the head of Chrysler, but who still insisted on taking 217 million out of the shareholders pockets as a leaving gift) to play the lead role... -Let's see how this all plays out, -shall we?

I know that I've likened Detroit to the British car industry a lot lately, but it only just occurred to me that Chrysler actually enjoyed that scene so much that they bought the screenplay and are re-living it here on an even grander scale.

Keith

[danickstr]

lots of interesting facts from Keiths post.