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[ted nightshade]

Hello all,

"room" is in quotes because this room has infinite volume- it's the great outdoors.

Kind of a long story- hope some of you are interested.

One of the main questions is how to achieve a really nice full-spectrum reflection from  a single wall- how could I treat the wall, to get it to be very live and balanced in reflection spectrum from lows through nice warm mids to clean healthy very highs?

Here's the story:

My kick in purist live-out-of-the-studio recording has been to use a main mic or a main pair (actually, just expanding into stereo recently) with a distance pair, mixed in very, very quietly (sometimes inaudible on it's own!), which yields a very nice 3 dimensional effect, giving every instrument another dimension in which to find it's space in the live to tape mix. I've been experimenting with different mics and pres for the distance mics, and I'm finding that to really work this, it helps a lot to have the same pres for distance, and some mics work a lot better than others- what works best is a very natural spectral balance from the distance mic.

It's kind of incredible that little variables with the distance mic chain and pickup make very significant differences in the main sound, even when the distance mics are barely audible, or even not audible at all, on their own, at the levels they take in the mix of main pair and distance mics!

How is this about acoustics? Well, I realized that what these distance mics are doing is providing a very high quality "reflection" of the sound. It occured to me that I could probably skip the distance mics altogether and get the same kind of beautiful spacious effect with the right acoustics situation, using a wall (the outside of my cabin) for the reflection- this could save me some serious dough getting another 2 channels of mics and pres together just right for the task. I did have some success in this, but only enough to be enticing- because the reflection off the wall is just not as high quality a signal as the distance mic signal, when well done. I can get great lows off the wall, and pretty good mids, but for high frequencies, nothing. I'd like to treat the wall in some way to get a healthier high frequency bounce. It's 30 feet wide, plenty high, and right now, it's 12" rough-sawn pine boards with battens.

I'm trying to set up an outdoor recording area where I can get different acoustic effects by setting up music at different distances from the wall- at 24', I get a great gentle slapback, mellowing as you move further away, closer up to maybe 15' the reflection becomes part of the sound, and sounds healthy, closer to that it's pretty claustrophobic, and not so nice. I will be putting some kind of outdoor rough tile, flagstones, or pavers down to make working there easier than it is on the bare uneven ground, and I'm trying to choose something with  a nice acoustic to it for the "floor".

The reflections from other directions than this wall are very diffuse and quiet, a really nice natural ambience coming from a little canyon-creekbed area there with mountain ridges sloping up from the creekbed. By changing musician placement, mic placement, distance to the wall, and orientation to the wall, I should have quite a flexible little acoustic space if I set it up well and when I learn to work it.

I'm doing plenty of listening and recording experiments out there, but I could really use the input of anybody who has an interest, and some knowledge of great acoustics. The New Stereo SoundBook has been very interesting reading, especially the sections on auditory spaciousness and reflections. I have a pretty good grasp of the situation in mono, and have spent quite a while getting the most out of mono, but making the most of it in stereo is the next step, and I have a lot to learn. Eventually I'd like to take it to surround.

Anyhow, thanks much to anybody interested, who has ideas as to how to make the most of this situation- I think the sky is the limit, as well as the ceiling!

[Chuck]

ted

It occured to me that I could probably skip the distance mics altogether and get the same kind of beautiful spacious effect with the right acoustics situation, using a wall (the outside of my cabin) for the reflection- this could save me some serious dough getting another 2 channels of mics and pres together just right for the task. I did have some success in this, but only enough to be enticing- because the reflection off the wall is just not as high quality a signal as the distance mic signal, when well done. I can get great lows off the wall, and pretty good mids, but for high frequencies, nothing. I'd like to treat the wall in some way to get a healthier high frequency bounce. It's 30 feet wide, plenty high, and right now, it's 12" rough-sawn pine boards with battens.

Hi Ted,,

You already have chosen the right wood

You will get those high-quality high frequency sound, when you lacquer the pine wall with the right stuff. Its the same as my spruce (pine) horn on my VOTT. Unlacquered it has this woody sound with no highs. With the right lacquer it does all frequencies and is perfectly transparent (soundwise).

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/BYOB%20pics/VOT_spruce.jpg

Dissolve colophony in real turpentine, and give the wall a complete  treatment. Let it dry (outside) for a week, then listen.  

Please give me feedback.

More info here:
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/lacquer.htm
and here:
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/mother.htm

Charles

[ted nightshade]

Thanks Charles- enjoyable reading!

The walls are finished with 1" thick roughsawn pine, so it's rather fuzzy, not smooth like the woods I see pictured. I suppose I could take a sander to it all, or I could just get some smooth finish pine boards and make some acoustic panels...

Ethan Winer had recommended tile or glass as a surface for very  high frequency reflections.

[Extreme Mixing]

Ted,

Be sure that  you urinate into the laquer so that it adds just the right "thing" to the sound.

I was in the forest in Eugene, Oregon last week.  It has a really great sound,too, but I don't know what I would do about all those birds!  It did sound amazing, though.  We also made a stop in Ashland.  What a great town that must be.

Steve

[Johnny B]

Ted,

If I were you, I would consider Ethan's ideas
and make some removable panel experiments first.

For example, get a few sheets of plywood and glue tile
or glass or steel or whatever reflective surface
you can find at a recycling place.

Not sure if you'll need the old professional mover's packing blanket tricks. Those things can be real life savers.

Judging from your posts on other threads, I imagine you are quite particular in the sound you want, that's why I would go with the least intrusive experiments first.

BTW, have you ever played around with a boundary mic glued to a big piece of plastic? That might be fun for you to try at some point if you haven't done that one already. I think Crown has one that goes for around 60 bucks.

Speaking of Crown, I think it might have been was Crown who had some little mics that were in the exact center of a plastic dish and these were used on Buddy Rich's very last video/perfomance done at One Pass Video in San Francisco. I saw the video tape of this not long ago and I'm forgetting many of the finer details but I think they claimed that those little mics were supposed to be able to pick up all the detail of Buddy's cymbals. All those highs. They also claimed that because the mics were in a dish, you did not have to worry so much about on- or off-axis issues. Makes sense. Could be true, I dunno.  Unfortunatlely, I listened/watched to it on a crappy system, but it seemed pretty impressive even on that. YMMV.

Buy or rent the tape and take a look. IMHO, there is no one like Buddy Rich and worth it just to see one of the world's greatest drummers.    

 

[Chuck]

ted nightshade wrote on Mon, 28 June 2004 21:40

Thanks Charles- enjoyable reading! The walls are finished with 1" thick roughsawn pine, so it's rather fuzzy, not smooth like the woods I see pictured. I suppose I could take a sander to it all, or I could just get some smooth finish pine boards and make some acoustic panels... Ethan Winer had recommended tile or glass as a surface for very  high frequency reflections.

Hi Ted,,

the rougher the wood, the more dispersion you will have and the more lacquer you will need. However sanding does not harm, and it looks better afterwards.

Use glass or tile only if you want to add the sonic signature of a toilet.

Please give that colophony / turpentine a fair try.  It will lead you to a completely new quality of  tone.

You are on the right track.

Charles

[Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)]

I bet you could play around with getting the wood wet to get some insights on how much laquer to use.  

[ted nightshade]

Thanks all for the interest!

I having the birds on recordings- no troubles there!

I have a window on that wall that usually gets opened, and the closed half covered with a rug, to kill the reflection- I tried closing it and exposing the whole glass surface, and what I heard made me think that yes some lacquered wood is probably a lot more like what I'm after. I can really imagine that tone. Ah yes.

Another issue is the "floor" surface- right now it's bare, rough rocky ground and needs to be flat for comfortable work. I'm concerned about the sonic signature of whatever that surface becomes.

There will be two areas- a 35 foot by 10-12 foot area for most of the music to take place on, which can be somewhat irregular in surface, and a small platform that must be perfectly flat to support the piano. That platform would be at a different height (a couple feet higher) due to the site, to make it easy to roll the piano in and out of the building and into place.

So I need a hard flat surface that piano wheels can roll on smoothly, for a small area, and for the rest, I'm thinking of unmortared brick or concrete pavers, or rough slate tile or possibly even flagstone. I've seen some pavers with holes in them to let the grass grow through- that could be good for acoustics I believe.

Any thoughts about the acoustic properties of the ground surface? I guess I could probably work in some railroad ties for acoustic variety, but I think it would be too spendy to do it all in ties, and maybe too splintery too. Pressure treated is out, too toxic for my taste.

Thanks!