Nika Aldrich wrote on Sun, 20 June 2004 04:11 |
Then WHY IN THE WORLD ARE YOU PICKING THIS BLOODY FIGHT??
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Sorry, I didn't get the memo that this was a fight... I intend to keep my composture, I'd suggest you do the same.
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If you want to rename IIR filters to recognize that at the subatomic level there is still some mystery then that is a completely separate discussion.
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That's not the issue, you said on the other thread "Oh, BTW, transducers are IIR systems" and I said no... if you had said "Oh, BTW, transducer mathematical models exhibit an infinite impulse response, in real life they will return to the initial pre-impulse state due to the rejection properties of materials" and this thread wouldn't exit.
Call me anal retentive, but last thing that I want is people to believe that their speakers and microphone capsules are still vibrating after they have been left alone.
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But by the definitions in use for IIR filters both transducers and electrical feedback systems are IIR filters, granted that at some nanoscopic level both fade into question.
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Micro and macroscopic, again, take a speaker cone, you have a free field magnetic coil that pushes an elastic cone, this elastic cone exhibits inertia and you need a tensor for it to move, any force below this tensor value will not make the speaker cone move, comprende? The coil might be oscillating ad infinitum (It won't) but those oscillatons won't affect the speaker cone at the macro and microscopic levels.
The transducer is a system to convert electrical energy into mechanical energy and has to be treated as such... if you want to use a simplified model, be my guest, make sure you label it as such.
That's like taking the small signal transistor model of one resistor and one current source to be the exact behavior of the transistor for all inputs.
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Either transducers and feedback systems are both FIR filters or they are both IIR filters, but they are the same, and you are intentionally obscuring that fact because you realize you made a mistake several pages ago and now you're just being stubborn for the sake of procrastinating an acknowledgement that you were out of line.
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Excuse me, but I'm not intentionally or stubbornly obscuring anything... I'm being crystal clear with you... does the model exhibit an infinite impulse response? Yes, does the physical system exhibit that behavior? No.
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You've now had both myself and Paul tell you that yet you persist with the same "when they reach equilibrium" now, wasting my time for pages.
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And mine as well...
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Of course if they "reach" equilibrium at a steady state then they are the same.
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Thank you, that would've saved you pages of debate... but moving on...
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They will never reach equilibrium, per the fact that forces are constants.
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Oh, but they are not, if you blast air into a room expect a change in room pressure for a while, if your sound wave hits a wall expect a reflection... hardly constant right?
If you take a simple second order low pass filter and measure its output with no input you get a measurement right? That's your equilibrium, and that's not zero, so any exponential decay function will converge to it.
You are stubbornly going on about equilibrium being "zero" and I'm stubbornly going on about equilibrium being that initial measurement.
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Can you just apologize for the error and let us drop this ridiculous thread before it gets even more embarassing?
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Didn't know I owed you an apology or anything.
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Transducers, as with ANY natural resonating object, are IIR filters. FIR filters, per Paul's statement that you said you agree with, are only figments of mathematical limitations that do not accurately model anything in the natural world.
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FIR filters are not implementable in the analog domain... big difference between that an your statement.
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You said you agree with Paul, so great, we'll put that to rest. Transducers are NOT FIR filters.
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What Paul and I are agreeing with is not what you and I are disagreeing with, you are standing on a mathematical premise that has no resemblance to physical behavior, but so be it.
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Great.
I'm done.
Nika.
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Great, so am I... George can decide whether to leave this thread up or delete it as he sees fit.