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[Loco]

FYI, some real world numbers on PT's latency:

HD - bus - HD  10 samples
HD - AES out - AES in - HD   17 samples
HD - DAC - ADC - HD   81 samples

2 Miliseconds is the real world latency on PT. There you have it, deal with it.

Also, I've had less crashes on DP4.12 than in DP 3.11, even using MachFive. Maybe it's just me.

[Roland Storch]

Giovanni Speranza wrote on Mon, 21 June 2004 13:13

I feel sorry for PT users, but a native DAW with freeze has more power, better sound,  better soft instruments integration, better composing tools than PT, for 1/10 of the price.

Better sound? Using the same AD/DA converters the only difference is 48 fixed point versus 32 bit floating point.
In theory I always prefered the 48 bit fixed point approach. There are a lot of white papers and articles about less errors in 48 bit fixed point calculation compared to floating point.

Of course, not the principle itself makes the difference in quality but how the principle is made in practice (a inline 6 cylinder is principly better than a inline 4 cylinder, but a really well constructed inline 4 cylinder could be better than a bad made inline 6 cylinder). If a 48 bit fixed point DAW is made by a good programmer than it will be better than any 32 bit floating point DAW. Sonic Solutions showed that all the time.

Is there any native 48 bit fixed point DAW out there?

[Giovanni Speranza]

As already discussed, 48 fixed is a little advantage over 32 float when summing tracks, while 32float has huge advantage over 48 bit fixed when processing (plugins). So the 48 fixed is not a winner at all.
Then there is the summing architecture which is different from DAW to DAW, and determine it's sound quality.
It's well known in the pro circles that PT is not able to mix without loosing the "magic", and i confirm by my earing experience with PT and other DAWs.
So i vote native.

[innesireinar]

This is a test that I've done some months ago and posted in another forum:

"Because I've frequently heard and read comments and impressions about how good PT sound is compared to other DAWs like Logic ect, I've decided to do a test in order to evidence what sounds better.
A friend of mine who has done a song in his studio has accepted to give me the audio files of this song for me to mix it in my studio.

This is the list of my friend setup:
Pro Tools 6 HD5 (HD3+2HDprocess)no accell
ProCtrl 16 faders
192 I/O interface
192 I/O digital interface
G4 quick silver 867 OSX 1,5 G ram
6 SCSI disks
TCE system 6000 connected to 192 digital
EAR yoshino Tube preamp
Neumann U87Ai
Audio monitors KRK E7

This is mine:
Logic Pro OSX
No HW Controller
RME Hammerfall 9652 (no HDSP)
G4 1GHz DP MDD 768 ram
1 disk dedicated to audio recordings
Apogee Rosetta 800 96
TCE M5000, PCM70, TC 1210, Avalon AD2022
Audio monitors Genelec 1031A
SPL surround monitor controller

To do this test we have used Waves Platinum bundle since these plugs are available in TDM (for PT mix) and AU (for Logic mix).
Because Logic doesn't have a real pan on stereo channels (but only a balance control like hi-fi integrated amp), I've asked to my friend to keep all stereo channels full open pan during his mix in PT.

These are the instuments of the song:
trk 01 bass drum stereo ren channel
trk 02 sidestick stereo ren channel
trk 03 cabasa 1 mono audiotrack
trk 04 cabasa 2 mono audiotrack
trk 05 tamb stereo none
trk 06 belltree stereo ren eq 2
trk 07 snare stereo ren channel
trk 08 hihat stereo none (file previously processed)
trk 09 triangle stereo none
trk 10 toms stereo ren eq 4
trk 11 ride stereo ren channel
trk 12 tymp stereo none
trk 13 reverse stereo none
trk 14 cyms stereo ren eq 4 + ren comp
trk 15 piano stereo ren channel
trk 16 cellos stereo ren eq 2
trk 17 violas stereo ren eq 2
trk 18 strings stereo ren eq 2
trk 19 pad stereo ren comp
trk 20 pad2 stereo ren comp
trk 21 classic guit mono ren eq 4
trk 22 acoustic guit mono ren eq 4
trk 23 dist. guit mono ren eq 4 + ren comp
trk 24 dist. guit 2 mono ren eq 4 + ren comp
trk 25 back male V stereo ren eq 4 + ren comp (file previously premixed)
trk 26 back femaleV stereo ren eq 4 + ren comp (file previously premixed)
trk 27 el. bass mono ren eq 4 + ren comp
trk 28 lead voc 1 mono ren eq 6 + ren comp
trk 29 lead voc 2 mono ren eq 6 + ren comp

6 ren reverb, 2 supertap dly

All rhythmic sounds, keyboards and strings were from electronics devices

My friend has done his original mix with sony Oxford eq. and various compressor plugs
But for this test he has done a mix with Waves plugs only.
Since it was impossible to import settings from TDM version to AU version we’ve had a long telephone conversation each in front of his computer so that he might be able to tell me all parameters settings of all plugs.
Once the settings were inserted I pressed play and a message appeared telling me that the HD was too slow for reading all tracks and I’ve solved this by setting large disk buffer and then all worked properly and I proceeded to bounce my mix. Once my mix was done I’ve opened a new Loic song and I’ve imported PT mix file on track 1 and Logic mix file on track 2.
These files were split in various parts and by muting some of these alternatively on both tracks we had an automatic crossing between PT mix and Logic mix. With my friend one of us muting various parts and the other listening without watching the screen and guessing which one of the files was playing neither of us was able to identify which file was playing. Both files were remarkably equal sounding. At one point, with both of us looking at the screen we came to the conclusion that PT file had slightly bigger rides but when we got back to listening with our own ears only (without looking) it was impossible to identify which one was playing.
The difference was that my poor old G4 was about 85% of CPU whereas my friend with his PT system was HD core and an half of 1 HD process used. But now with G5 things are channging."

[TotalSonic]

Quote:

Is there any native 48 bit fixed point DAW out there?

The PC native DAW that I use & resell, SAWStudio, uses 32 bit double precision fixed point math, with many of it's calculation done using 64bit fixed point.  It's built in eq's use floating point though as the developer found that fixed point math was generating dc offset in certain settings so he changed to a different algorithm for this one area.  Many of its 3rd party native plugins run using 64bit floating point.

http://www.sawstudio.com

fwiw - a number of my clients who purchased it from me and have migrated Sonar, Samplitude, and Nuendo have told me that SAWStudio subjectively sounds better to them than the apps they were previously using.  OMMV.

Best regards,
Steve Berson