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Author Topic: Milab DC-196 microphone  (Read 15288 times)

tom eaton

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2009, 08:06:54 am »

Barry-

MS is not mono compatible?  It's the ONLY multi-mic stereo recording format that presents the center of the soundstage with no phase issues when presented in mono.

I really don't like working in MS, but if I know something WILL come down to mono it's WAY easier to get a great sound from that M mic and then add the S to help those who will hear it in stereo.

I nearly always prefer XY to everything else for stereo sonic purposes, though!

t

Barry Hufker

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2009, 11:48:06 am »

Hi Tom.

I know it's heresy - and I may be overstating the case - but I don't believe M/S to be mono compatible.  If "mono compatible" is defined as the percentage of signal loss due to phase cancellation between the two mics, then M/S fails the test I believe because the S signal is completely canceled, and along with it most of the ambient information.

Barry
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boojum

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2009, 09:44:49 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 11:51

Boojum,

None of the SLCC tracks on my site use M/S.  I recorded their last concert with that but haven't posted anything from it.  Now I think of it, there are no M/S recordings at all on my site...

Marc Aubort, legendary recording engineer of Elite Recordings (NYC) and a mentor of mine once said M/S stands for "Maybe Stereo".  Marc always uses spaced omnis.  I like that technique as well but will use what is necessary.  Sometimes that's M/S.

I don't like M/S for at least two reasons:
1. It is not mono compatible.  In monaural, the S signal is canceled out and with it some of the information available in stereo.  This is not true of Blumlein or X/Y.

2. It contains no time of arrival information, which I think is vital to the full enjoyment of a performance recorded in stereo.

Barry


Barry -

I have heard the old saw about "lack of stereo information" and "maybe stereo" but I have not found this the case in real world recording.  I understand why some like near concident and AB over coincident.  However, MS decoded is a near coincident image close to ORTF.  I have good luck with MS for stereo image and spread.  I am confused.

I cannot upload a sample of a jazz track I recorded MS for you.  Sorry.

Cheers

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Barry Hufker

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2009, 10:13:13 pm »

I don't understand how M/S is "a near coincident image close to ORTF".  The M and S capsules are supposed to be as coincident as possible while ORTF calls for a separation of 17 cm (7 inches) at an angle of 110 degrees.  Even with a small separation of capsules in a practical M/S system it doesn't approach 17 cm...

Now *I'm* confused...

EDIT: The website doesn't allow uploaded audio files...
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boojum

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2009, 02:10:01 am »

Barry -

I cannot find it in a quick google but I thought I had read in Earlge or Bartlett that MS decodes to a near coincident image even though it is, itself, coincident.  I will check my manuals.  You may very well be right.

However, back to the main point: lack of stereo cues.  This has not been my experience when recording with MS.  I get very good localization and a good stereo spread.  It is adjustable, of course.  And I get pretty good ambiance or "air."  I like MS as it is a good quick and dirty setup when I am rushed in a venue I am not familiar with and need to get set up in a hurry.  It is pretty good other times, too.  

In short, MS is a valuable tool in my tool bag.  It is not  the only tool, but it is a good one.

And I will check Eargle and Bartlett and get back on that one.  

I guess this thread is pretty hi-jacked by now and I apoligize to all for that.


Cheers
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boojum

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2009, 01:53:43 pm »

Barry -

I do not know how you did it, but you got Eargle, Bartlett and the others to revise what they said, and wrote in the books I already have.  It now says that MS decodes into coincident, not near-coincident!   LOL   I was wrong; you were right.


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Barry Hufker

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2009, 02:03:45 pm »

It just shows you can't believe what you read in books!  Smile

Barry
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tom eaton

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2009, 03:51:36 pm »

1984 all over again.

mgod

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2009, 04:17:35 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 11:51

Marc Aubort, legendary recording engineer of Elite Recordings (NYC) and a mentor of mine once said M/S stands for "Maybe Stereo".

Barry

Well this is some news. You've been holding out on us Barry . I love his recordings.

DS
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2009, 05:42:00 pm »

He's a fantastic guy.  And with his late partner, Joanna Nickrenz, has made many wonderful recordings.  Joanna died a few years ago of lung cancer.  Together they treated me like family when I was just getting started.  I had the pleasure of writing a couple of articles about them them for audio industry publications.

I see him every once in a while at AES conventions.  May he live forever (if he wants to!).

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Berolzheimer

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2009, 03:55:22 pm »

boojum wrote on Sun, 15 February 2009 23:10



However, back to the main point: lack of stereo cues.  This has not been my experience when recording with MS.  I get very good localization and a good stereo spread.  It is adjustable, of course.  And I get pretty good ambiance or "air."  



I think what Barry was saying, and I agree with him, is that ther's a loss of ambience not when listening in stereo but when the L & R are combined to mono- and of course then the side pickup is cancelled out completely and you're left listening only to a hyper-card.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2009, 03:56:37 pm »

That's exactly what I meant.  Thanks!


Barry


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tom eaton

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2009, 04:23:20 pm »

Right, but if you get a great sound of that M (doesn't have to be hyper- or even cardioid) mic before you add the S (fig-8) you'll know EXACTLY what people will hear when the program comes down to mono, and it won't have any of the notching and hf loss one almost always gets when pulling an xy down to mono.

t

Barry Hufker

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2009, 05:17:15 pm »

Of course one doesn't have to use hypercardioid, but can use any pattern.

Mono: I don't worry about mono compatibility (OK I do, but I also don't). If someone is still listening in mono then screw them.  This is the age of stereo (and for some, surround).  That's why I like spaced omni.  If we're going to have stereo, then let's really have stereo!!


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3rd 4thT

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Re: Milab DC-196 microphone
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2009, 12:08:07 am »

[quote title=Berolzheimer wrote on Wed, 18 February 2009 14:55]
boojum wrote on Sun, 15 February 2009 23:10


I think what Barry was saying, and I agree with him, is that ther's a loss of ambience not when listening in stereo but when the L & R are combined to mono- and of course then the side pickup is cancelled out completely and you're left listening only to a hyper-card.


I first learned about that with some Aaron Copland recordings made for CBS/Sony in London by Helmuth Kolbe. In stereo, awash in reverb. In mono, dry as a bone. Quite startling.

Cheers,
3rd&4thT
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