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Author Topic: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?  (Read 6171 times)

Tom H.

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Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« on: September 29, 2008, 03:11:51 pm »

Hi there!

Am wondering if anyone has or can do a straight A/B test with a Radar and a 2" 16trk running at 15 ips?
Iam currently looking at the idea of getting my feet wet by sticking them into the pool of Digital Audio, and NO, I will not be altering "performances" by cutting and pasting...
Just recording...That's why the Radar system seems Ok...
Anyone care to share?


Thanks alot,
Tom H.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2008, 06:23:11 pm »

I've owned a RADAR 24 for about 6 years and love it.  I can't do your comparison as I don't have a 2" 16 track.  Having recently performed a RADAR 24 vs. 2" 24 (3M M79), I can tell you the differences are as you'd expect.  RADAR was cleaner, clearer and better defined.  The M79 was "warmer" and "rounder" - the highs weren't as crisp or clean and the bass was "mushier" and less well defined.  Given sound quality, media/maintenance costs, RADAR is the clear winner for me.  But you have to be sure which RADAR model is being used for comparison.  We used a RADAR 24 with Nyquist converters.  The sampling rate was 96kHz with 24 bits.  That tape deck was freshly tweaked, perfect heads, fresh EMTEC tape at 15 ips.

For me, RADAR is IT and tape doesn't come close.  Tape is still fun and cool, but it is not close in terms of best sound, at least not in this format.

Barry
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 11:24:34 pm »

I have to disagree.  There is no better sounding manufactured tape machine for tracking drums than the 3M M56 2" 16trk.  Depending on how hard you hit it, the transient response is unbelievable.  I never found the bass to be mushy with 499.  Also, 15ips will give you a head bump at 50Hz, which you have to take into account.  

But the punchiest basics I ever tracked in any format were on my 2" 16 track.  Nothing compares to it.  

BTW, unlike the M79, the M56 is all discrete.

Now the Studer A80, I find to be a little mushy, on the other hand.  You can't just say 2" 16 without specifying which machine, CCIR or NAB, tape type, etc.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 12:47:20 am »

I agree there are many variables in comparing these machines and there is much which just comes down to one's preference.  I'll be in a better position to make a direct comparison once J.J. donates his M56 to Webster University...

Razz
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Tom H.

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 09:12:35 am »

Hello!

Thanks for the info...
Interesting...

I don't do "basics" on the 2" machine...
I've never left the analog world in any of my productions...
Oh, I was referring to a 2" 16trk MCI JH24/16 @15ips, NAB eq...
Maybe I'll try IECC eq on that machine before making up my mind...
I use that eq curve on my 1/4" 2trk tapedeck...
like it alot on there...

Thanks again...

Tom H.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 02:25:55 am »

MCI JH24/16?  Aaah, in that case, the RADAR will not get a case of Molexia.
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

Tom H.

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 03:18:18 pm »

Right!

So, JJ. How's the realibilty on the 3M M56?
Everyday workhorse?

Best regards,
Tom H.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2008, 04:49:37 pm »

Like any old machine, if you go through it and recap it, then yes.  It's a work horse.  
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

zmix

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2008, 03:32:05 am »

I did two records with the British band "Delirious?" .  One on radar and one on 2" 16track at 15ips.

I liked them both..!

It wasn't set up as a comparison,  one format was used on each project.

I liked the radar, but loved the 2"...

Tom H.

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2008, 12:25:52 pm »

Hey there!

Ok...
That's interesting...
What records are they?
Where can one check out the sounds?

I like the trk. count of 16trks. 24...too many...

Best regards,
T.
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wwittman

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2008, 11:49:22 am »

zmix wrote on Thu, 02 October 2008 03:32

I did two records with the British band "Delirious?" .  One on radar and one on 2" 16track at 15ips.

I liked them both..!

It wasn't set up as a comparison,  one format was used on each project.

I liked the radar, but loved the 2"...


I'm with Chuck.

I've worked on Radar and, with the Nyquist convertors especially, it sounds really good.

but not NEARLY as good as a good 2" machine.
including at 24 track.




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Galil

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2008, 08:07:18 pm »

Tom H asked:

Hey there!

Ok...
That's interesting...
What records are they?
Where can one check out the sounds?


ZMix worked on the Delirious? album Deeper and was the producer on the following album: Touch (also called Audio Lessonover outside the US). I'm not so bright, just went to Chuck's website.  Very Happy

Are guys interested enough to listen to the two albums and guess analog vs radar?  I'm certain that Chuck will be back to fill us in.

Galil
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zmix

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2008, 09:53:40 pm »

Galil wrote on Sun, 05 October 2008 20:07

Tom H asked:

Hey there!

Ok...
That's interesting...
What records are they?
Where can one check out the sounds?


ZMix worked on the Delirious? album Deeper and was the producer on the following album: Touch (also called Audio Lessonover outside the US). I'm not so bright, just went to Chuck's website.  Very Happy

Are guys interested enough to listen to the two albums and guess analog vs radar?  I'm certain that Chuck will be back to fill us in.

Galil



Actually the records were "Glo" and "Audiolessonover", which was reduced from 14 to 10 songs for the US market and released  under the name "Touch"


It's pretty easy to hear the differences...  

I aligned the 2" 16 track to +15/185nW/m at 15ips....

Seriously.

Fletcher

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2008, 06:37:14 am »

zmix wrote on Sun, 05 October 2008 21:53


I aligned the 2" 16 track to +15/185nW/m at 15ips.


How'd you do that without burning out the coils on the record head?  ... or did you align it, and use it with one track in record at a time?
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CN Fletcher

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If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

zmix

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Re: Radar vs. 2" 16trk @ 15ips?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 09:58:21 am »

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 22 October 2008 06:37

zmix wrote on Sun, 05 October 2008 21:53


I aligned the 2" 16 track to +15/185nW/m at 15ips.


How'd you do that without burning out the coils on the record head?  ... or did you align it, and use it with one track in record at a time?



I alligned the entire machine to +15 and all tracks were in record.  The record head never got warm to the touch...

It's a bit of a myth that the headstack will burn out from the meager drive capability of  a typical head amp.  George Massenburg famously claims to have recorded Lowel George's guitar with the channel aligned to +20...
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