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Author Topic: To bottom mic or to not  (Read 8926 times)

Jonah A. Kort

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To bottom mic or to not
« on: September 26, 2008, 02:39:54 am »

How many of you all use a bottom mic on the snare?  I haven't done

it in a while, but I'm thinking about put it up just in case from

now on.
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NelsonL

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 03:52:38 am »

I usually prefer additional room mics to a bottom snare, but we only have so many inputs where I'm used to working. I really need the sound of the snare exciting the room, and you can't get that from a sample or a bottom mic per se.

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ATOR

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 05:56:31 am »

When mixing I find that a little of the bottom mic helps a lot to add a better (mid-)high presence to the snare. More so than eqing the top mic.
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craig boychuk

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 10:37:30 am »

I like to put one up almost all of the time.

Sometimes I don't use the bottom mic for crispiness at all, but more to beef up the snare sound.

Throw on judiciously tuned LPF and you can really bring out the body of the drum without the crispy bits.

-craig-
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Ryan Slowey

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 12:29:10 pm »

I usually mic the bottom if I have enough channels. Most times I sum them together before AD, so that it records to only one channel. I like to commit to stuff early on.
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ShakesTheClown

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 01:50:18 pm »

I like to put an omni between the bottom of the snare and the beater of the kick...I usually have to move it a few times to get the correct balance.

I find that if I need more snap from the snare I probably need more slap from the kick drum as well.
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rankus

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 02:02:14 pm »



I always take a bottom mic, and use it in the mix at least 99% of the time.

Really handy for bringing out ghost notes / drags etc as well as all the reasons mentioned above.

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j.hall

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 02:21:17 pm »

i use to hate bottom snares.  now i'm pissed if i don't get one.

very useful for maintaining that "open" snare sound.
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Jonah A. Kort

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 04:26:32 pm »

NelsonL wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 02:52

I usually prefer additional room mics to a bottom snare, but we only have so many inputs where I'm used to working. I really need the sound of the snare exciting the room, and you can't get that from a sample or a bottom mic per se.





I only have some many microphones.  I only have two LDCs and I

had two SDCs but one of them decided to stop work.  And I'm

starting to use the one SDC (sm81) on the snare top.  It sounds

more better than an sm57.  I wonder if it has to do with the

large number hehe. I do however duplicate the overheads in the

Protools and hit that with a heavier handed compression to

emulate room mics.  I also record in a basement so I take the

sounds I can get.
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beau

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 05:03:50 pm »

i always track with one now.  however, if i were in a room where i didn't have enough inputs, i guess i could live without it..  i have done a ton of records with no bottom snare mic.

peace

beau
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craig boychuk

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 05:13:35 pm »

Hell, why even mic the snare at all?

Simplify, simplify.


-craig-
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Jonah A. Kort

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 05:40:57 pm »

Mono LDC in front of the drums, close though, like at the front of

the kick a couple feet, mic on the kick, and mic on the floor tom

so it doesn't lost (or is that too complex) oh and a good drummer.  

That's how you get a good snare drum sound, like TNT. hehe
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beau

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 06:41:40 pm »

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 14:40

Mono LDC in front of the drums, close though, like at the front of

the kick a couple feet, mic on the kick, and mic on the floor tom

so it doesn't lost (or is that too complex) oh and a good drummer.  

That's how you get a good snare drum sound, like TNT. hehe


thats what im talkin about! one mic for the band, one for the main vocal... makes mixing way easier with only 2 tracks to work with. Wink

hahaha

peace

beau
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grantis

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 07:45:42 pm »

I never used to do it until the last few projects and I don't think I could go without it now.  Even if you end up not needing it on a song or 2, it's better to have it than not.
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Grant Craig
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meverylame

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 10:57:05 pm »

Or just grow a pair and bus them together on input. Twisted Evil  

But really.... not kidding try it.

Same with kick in/kick out.
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grantis

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2008, 12:50:38 am »

meverylame wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 21:57

Or just grow a pair and bus them together on input. Twisted Evil  

But really.... not kidding try it.

Same with kick in/kick out.


I don't think I'm ready for that!  haha.
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Grant Craig
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Jonah A. Kort

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2008, 02:22:45 am »

Me either...
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meverylame

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 11:45:53 am »

grant richard wrote on Sat, 27 September 2008 00:50



I don't think I'm ready for that!  haha.


If you're recording drums... you're ready just use your ears and boldly move forth. Its really pretty liberating all said and done.

Actually here's a great one that I saw the other day.

Build and XLR y-cable. One male end, two females. On one of the two female ends switch pins 2 and 3 so that you have effectively phase reversed one side of it. And then find two mics that impedance match nicely. Oddly enough 421s and 57s do this well. And there you go. Summed down. At the cable. You wanna mess with the phase.... go move the mic. Killer on toms.

And then you can really make J wanna shoot you and sum all the toms down to one stereo track on input.
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beau

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2008, 12:32:53 pm »

i print summed kick in and out together all the time.  and the y cable works wonders for a pair of 604's on top and bottom toms.  (oops didn't see the above post talking about toms, so ill add this little bit)  the 604's work well on toms with the y cable because you have the little clips on them and can just clip them on to the hoops and the phase is usually pretty right on.  also works great with the old atm250's.  

im not really feelin the y cable on snare, because i almost never use the bottom mic that loud in the mix.  

just my opinion.

peace

beau
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rankus

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2008, 01:23:27 pm »

beau wrote on Sat, 27 September 2008 09:32



im not really feelin the y cable on snare, because i almost never use the bottom mic that loud in the mix.  

beau


Me too.  I often like to treat the bottom differently (eq/comp etc) as well.  I usually don't know what the treatment will be until mix.  But then again I am the guy that likes to print separate mics for guitar amps instead of busing them too.


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j.hall

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2008, 10:54:39 am »

meverylame wrote on Sat, 27 September 2008 10:45



And then you can really make J wanna shoot you and sum all the toms down to one stereo track on input.


i'll deal with whatever is delivered.  doesn't mean i have to smile about it.

printing top and bottom snare mics to one track is NOT ideal for me.  but i'm sure i can use enough samples to get what i wanted.
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compasspnt

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 09:07:31 am »

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 02:39

How many of you all use a bottom mic on the snare?




Never.

Bottom snare mics sound awful.


BTW: How many of you using the bottom snare mic are reversing "phase"?
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j.hall

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 10:30:57 am »

i check it every time, but 99% of the time the tracking guy reversed the phase to PT.

that's engineering 101, imo.
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rankus

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 01:24:13 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 01 October 2008 06:07


How many of you using the bottom snare mic are reversing "phase"?




Always during tracking, and then checked again when beginning the mix. All mics checked for phase at both stages actually.

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pg666

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2008, 06:49:31 pm »

i've never been impressed.

i just recorded my drummer's kit with a 57 on the beater and it picked up quite a bit of bottom snare. if i end up using a lot of beater in the mix, i'll probably have to gate it because that brissly toothbrush sound makes the snare wimpy, to me.

i could see it being a good thing for light brush playing or something, but for a thick rock snare i don't think i'll ever like it.
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ericswan

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2008, 12:46:48 am »

Never bother with a bottom mic. I usually mic the snare from the side of the shell with a SDC facing away from the high hat. This will give me the sound of the whole drum. I only mic the top head if there is a lot of brushwork being played.
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Jonah A. Kort

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2008, 05:39:57 am »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 01 October 2008 08:07

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 02:39

How many of you all use a bottom mic on the snare?




Never.

Bottom snare mics sound awful.


BTW: How many of you using the bottom snare mic are reversing "phase"?



When you solo it, but listens to a mix with the bottom mic soloed?   Very Happy
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grantis

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2008, 08:42:51 am »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 01 October 2008 08:07

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 02:39

How many of you all use a bottom mic on the snare?




Never.

Bottom snare mics sound awful.


BTW: How many of you using the bottom snare mic are reversing "phase"?



Yes, they do sound awful...... by themselves that is.  

With support, they're VERY beneficial.
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Grant Craig
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Jonah A. Kort

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2008, 05:32:57 pm »

In addition, I find myself pulling the sample fader down when i

have a bottom mic available...

...assuming the drummer knows how to play the drums...I hate making

an ass of me(self)...and you too Very Happy
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j.hall

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2008, 06:32:29 pm »

grant richard wrote on Sun, 05 October 2008 07:42

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 01 October 2008 08:07

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 02:39

How many of you all use a bottom mic on the snare?




Never.

Bottom snare mics sound awful.


BTW: How many of you using the bottom snare mic are reversing "phase"?



Yes, they do sound awful...... by themselves that is.  

With support, they're VERY beneficial.


in a dense rock mix, the bottom snare mic gives you the "snare" sound to make the snare drum still sound open.  i haven't found another way of doing that, sans a sample that already has a lot of that sound in it.


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bushwick

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2008, 05:27:55 pm »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 01 October 2008 09:07

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Fri, 26 September 2008 02:39

How many of you all use a bottom mic on the snare?




Never.

Bottom snare mics sound awful.


BTW: How many of you using the bottom snare mic are reversing "phase"?



More often than not, I find that I am only reversing polarity. Although on kick and bass DI/Bass amp situations I like the IBP to screw with the phase. Fun shtuff.

And I like me a bottom snare mic. If I want large-marge drum sounds, the beef almost more than the sizzle is what I'm looking for when pulling up le fader on the bottom mic.

Au revoir.
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j.hall

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2008, 09:32:11 pm »

you get beef off the bottom snare mic?
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grantis

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2008, 11:35:02 pm »

j.hall wrote on Mon, 06 October 2008 20:32

you get beef off the bottom snare mic?


And how are you getting said beef?
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Grant Craig
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Tomas Danko

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2008, 07:31:29 am »

The funny thing is that to begin with, depending on the overhead mic setup, the bottom mic may need to be polarity reversed just because of that. Not as much of an issue, usually though.

But then there are snares where, upon being hit, the bottom skin actually gets sucked in/upwards and thus the "polarity" of the air push/pull is already reversed going into the bottom mic. If you flip the polarity of the bottom mic, it fixes the sum of the top- and bottom mic but suddenly the bottom mic is not properly capturing the movement of the bottom skin. Tricky business.

That's why they do them holes in the side of the snare. Smile

So sometimes you actually need to flip the polarity of the bottom snare due to other reasons than the good old "it's pointing towards the top mic".
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j.hall

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2008, 10:16:33 am »

i've been a drummer since i was 6 years old.  by no means does that make me any kind of expert, but i've never seen, heard, or played a snare drum that created a vacuum on the bottom head from striking the top head.  i'm not a physics professor either, but i'm not sure how that would even work.
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compasspnt

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2008, 09:52:48 pm »

You don't have a set of VacuDrums
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PaulyD

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2008, 06:23:54 am »

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 01 October 2008 06:07

Bottom snare mics sound awful.



But if the top snare mic sounds awful, a bottom snare mic makes a terrific trigger for Drumagog...

bushwick

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2008, 11:00:08 am »

I have yet to find the bottom mic not needing its polarity flipped. I've been doing some R&B stuff lately and the bottom mic comes in very handy for getting things to sound "more sample like". Funny that. But its true.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2008, 08:57:32 am »

I can't find it now, but I've seen quite elaborate explanations documented in both printed form as well as online. Another tidbit is that when striking the top skin, it's moving away from the top mic but then the bottom skin is moving towards the bottom mic, with a smaller vent hole on the side of the snare.
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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2008, 09:47:09 am »

I never have to flip the phase of the bottom mic. Don't know why. I mic the snare on top usually just above skin and oriented 100% horizontally across the snare head. I usually DO have to flip the polarity of the bass drum to get in phase with the overheads.
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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2009, 11:05:36 pm »

I've always used a bottom snare mic until this week when the guy assisting convinced me to try without! I listened to him since we had a great sound going without it. Come to find out, I do miss it now, but won't die without it.
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NelsonL

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2009, 01:36:07 am »

iamryancork wrote on Mon, 19 January 2009 20:05

I've always used a bottom snare mic until this week when the guy assisting convinced me to try without! I listened to him since we had a great sound going without it. Come to find out, I do miss it now, but won't die without it.


It seems to me this a somewhat unexplored area for sample sets-- I suppose they might confuse people by sounding completely unusable on their own, but blended in might be a different story.
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iamryancork

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Re: To bottom mic or to not
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2009, 03:38:52 pm »

NelsonL wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 00:36


It seems to me this a somewhat unexplored area for sample sets-- I suppose they might confuse people by sounding completely unusable on their own, but blended in might be a different story.



Could be true, I don't often use samples but may find myself creating some for this project.
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