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Author Topic: help j.hall with PT.....  (Read 7411 times)

j.hall

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help j.hall with PT.....
« on: June 11, 2004, 10:36:41 am »

ok guys, i've finally woken up and accepted the fact that i'll have to get a PT rig for the new mix room if i plan to actually work in it very often.  tape rules, but it's simply dying.

so, i used to be the biggest PT nerd on the face of the earth

but that was back when 5.1 software was new, and pro control just came out.

i need a lot of help here!!!!!!!!!!

do i get HD......which one?

do i go for a cheaper mix + rig?

G5 running OSX?

i'll be coming direct out and mixing on my console.....what do i do?

i need to know about HD

do i need the extra power of HD2 or 3?

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Fibes

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2004, 11:29:52 am »

I've been mulling the same question around. Although we have similar situations there are a few things that HD offers that the Mix systems don't. The auto delay compensation is a HUGE factor for me. Sure, you won't be using many plugs but i'll bet you'd want to from time to time. There are some plugs that perform better than the real world stuff, not many but enough to start the justification. Altiverb is one of the reasons for me...

J. you may be able to get by with an HD1 system but after you factor in 24 channels of conversion the cost upgrade to Hd2 accel is minor by comparison. The 888s don't sound as good as the newer converters, something else to think about.

BTW I toyed with the idea of buying a mix system, the fact is support has been dropped and the product is going to sink faster than it has valuewise. Sure PT is sinking the day you buy it, but you have to justify the plusses of being supported for a few months anyway.  Laughing

Just my .02 of verbal diarreahhhhhhhhhh!


BTW Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! this is a sad and funny day!
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Fibes
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spankenstein

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2004, 12:14:18 pm »

This isn't exactly the direction this thread is going but I'll throw my two cents in any way.

I'm currently using SONAR and have a Delta 1010. It's cheap (comparitavely) and flexible. But it's not Pro Tools and people like the Pro Tools name. I just can't justify to me or my clients the cost of using a Pro Tools rig on that level. Of course I'm definitely at the lower-end/entry level range but I'm busy enough and get paid and everyone's been happy.

Having to spend $11,000 to get a PT rig that performs auto delay compensation is rediculous! The product cycle seems ungodly quick as well. And the fact that they so quickly drop support from older systems is a crock based on how much the stuff actually costs.





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Fibes

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2004, 02:05:38 pm »

spankenstein wrote on Fri, 11 June 2004 12:14

Having to spend $11,000 to get a PT rig that performs auto delay compensation is rediculous! The product cycle seems ungodly quick as well. And the fact that they so quickly drop support from older systems is a crock based on how much the stuff actually costs.



I'm sure you can't justify it, to a point i can't but in the other realm where PT is the norm there is pressure from all sides. I feel it, J's feeling it and yes, it's a fucking shame.

If J. had asked what DAW to try we could go into the merits of all of them but like J. I am being forced into buying into it for the sake of compatability with other engineers and studios. If i had PT i could be tracking 2-3 projects a month for another studio in my room and that means more cash. Why don't i now? I get some work out of it but it's a PITA to load up a project when you get used to boot and go with other PT sessions. Who am i to tell a repeat client that he has to deal with it if he wants to work with me. It's the law of the land, we don't have to like it but that's the way it is. In regards to J. who charges by the mix, if it takes him 30 minutes extra to load each PT song into another DAW and he mixes 30 PT songs a month that equals 180 hours per year. 180x$65 is $11,700. I can do a lot with 180 extra "free-time" hours.


Or you could just do the digi002 and utilize some lightpipe converters. Just pray that the track counts are less than 32. Not that they wouldn't be. I'm guessing this method ain't in the cards, it's not pro enough...

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Fibes
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meverylame

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2004, 02:16:06 pm »

The mix rig is very tempting at this point. I mean a mix core card is about 1500 to 2000 is go the used route, trash the 888s, and go with the apogee not the greatest but certainly better than the 888) converters at 2000 a pop. As for the auto delay compensation, its nice but I just don't think its 4 or 5 grand nice. Plus if you're runnung a good enough system you could just rely on rtas seeing as I can't imagine you using all that many  plugs anyway.


Plus you get beat detective. You'll be qualified to mix the next Get Up Kids.
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Jason Kingsland

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redelephant

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2004, 02:48:44 pm »

Have you thought about staying native? Perhaps getting a new Apogee AD16x & DA16x. You have a # of choices as far as getting the signal on to your machine. You could get a MOTU 2408 via lightpipe and route your Apogees that way. You could also wait two months until the FirewireX cards are out, that way you can forego the MOTU altogether.

As far as DSP processing goes, you can get a # of different cards to take the weight off of your computer. But in the days of the G5 outboard DSP processing seems a bit silly. Any machine that can run 14 instances of Altiverb is a machine that doesn't need a $8k PT DSP ACCEL card.

Software is the downfall right now if you were to stay native. The main mac app's are still a bit mild. DP is great, but still needs some obvious work. I haven't tried Logic, but I hear it is great if you aren't running any non-ASIO hardware. Cubase is dead on the mac, but Nuendo picks up the slack. Most plugin developers are catching on to the AU trend. URS and Sony are all develivering good quality plugins in AU format, which are IMHO the best plugs available for a PT rig. Waves, Anatres and all the usuals all deliever native formats.

Thats my $.02. I can see where PT was needed 3 years ago, but now I can't forsee PT taking all the market. G5's will get faster and plugins and software will get cheaper. The only thing PT's has going for them is their focus on developing PT only consoles and plugs.
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j.hall

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2004, 03:55:04 pm »

guys, this is great

let me expound some knowledge of my own

first off, let's drop all the digi sucks cause of support, and turning over new product.....let's just set that aside for one moment and look at some facts

kevin (fibes) is a good friend of mine.  he knows my business probably as well as i do.....and that actually says a lot sense i pretty tight lipped guy when it comes to what i've got going on

hell, i even call all music guide and had my credits pulled......hahahahaha, NO THAT'S INDIE ROCK!!!!!!!!

so, what kevin is talking about is not just what he is thinking, it's REAL

i charge two ways.....i charge per mix....yes that means you pay me X amount of dollars to sit and mix one song only, then you pay the same fee to do the next song

this can benefit you if you want to mix one tune ALL WEEK
it can hurt you if i can stamp out 6 tunes in one day

so.....that being said, i also work off a day rate if the projects is either of those two scenarios

cheaper for you, or more money for my time

if i can sit with my son and make meaningless baby sounds and have him smile and repeat them, i'll be a much nicer person in your session......

if PT allows that to happen.....BRING IT ON!!!!!!

next topic:
PT is the future my friends, embrace or get out of my way
PT holds the market share NO QUESTION

all other DAW are trying to import into it, and it is easily the standard at which all others are judged......these are facts!!!

kevin and i have had many phone conversations about me doing mix work for him as he sees fit.....can you imagine the nightmare i've already gone through converting a DP4 session over to 2" 24 track

it took me 35 hours to do 4 songs.......35 HOURS!!!!!!!!!!!

my friends are shipping drives around the country, i'm begging bands for a tape budget that has now started coming off the top of the actual budget which means.....it comes out of my pocket

other DAW are fine when you are the sole originator of the project and the sole person completing it.....

i'm not looking to find the most used DAW of the basement recordist

if my room is going to succeed it absolutely MUST be equipped the formats that will serve the broadest range of clients i can possibly afford it to

simply put:
2" 24 track, PT.....nothing else!!

nest topic

mix+ vs. HD

lets dive in

mix+ = cheaper, possibly more stable, wider user base.

all those make mix+ a worthy idea....HOWEVER
at the end of this month, all those mix+ rigs are going to fall throw the floor, digi will no longer offer it's KILLER upgrade offer and all the mix rigs will lose tremendous value

you thought they were cheap now (i don't) just wait a few months......people will be giving them away

digi is no longer supporting the mix system
i have a huge problem, i call digi, they hang up....i'm up a creek with a 10k investment and a glorified paper wait that i can play old atari games with

let's look at HD

much higher start up cost....but really, it's not all that much right now

i can probably get into an HD2 rig with 2 192 interfaces and an expansion card in one of em (16 in 24 out) for around 16k
maybe a bit more

here's what that gets me

i'll be one of VERY few HD owners in my area.....you want to use the new stuff, you call me

i'll get digi support, i can use OSX with out any trouble and will get future updates to debug any problems

i can buy current plug-ins

i can boast to anyone, anywhere....."yeah man, i've got HD, i can play any pt session doc you send me"

how long is it before a PT session doc simply won't play on a mix rig

i'll tell you....as soon as every MOFO out there is cutting at 96k

and that's a lot of people already!!!

i'll easily save 6 - 10k on outboard effects boxes by going with HD

the verbs and effects in HD are simply AWESOME
i worked on a mix rig for 3 years.....trust me, i know what they sound like

the HD clock and A/D are WAY better then mix +

i'd have to dump another 1.5k into a good stable clock for a mix rig

i'm not looking to by some alesis reverb here
this mix room WILL be bad ass

i've poored tons of sweat, and cash into the acoustics.....my amek big is getting totally hot rodded.....

if i don't get a PT rig, i'll be getting eventides, a 480L.....stuff that KICKS ASS

if i get the PT rig, i'll be able to do WAY more, recall it, and cater to more clients

in a matter of 4 hours, i've done the research and made up my mind

HD2 accel

it's the best i can do, and it will be the best out there for a while......

G5 dual 2.5g with a 17" plasma display

if i don't get that rig, i won't get anything
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takeout

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2004, 04:48:45 pm »

j.hall wrote on Fri, 11 June 2004 20:55

...G5 dual 2.5g with a 17" plasma display...

But... how are you going to hear your stereo mix with only one display?


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redelephant

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2004, 05:12:26 pm »

Has our fearless leader dropped his 'indie rock' morals for THE MAN?! His mind must have been sound replaced and beat detected into giving into the ways of the DIGI!

In all seriousness, I would take a DIGI rig for free.. but spend $15K on it.. doubtful. The converters don't even sound that good! The plugins are quite nice, but native is improving, and that is all in the hands of the CPU which is drastically changing to accommodate DSP intensive plugs.

PT has a leg up in shear number's. Much like the republican party if you ask me. Spreading its facsist one-sided movement to appeal to its own gain. BUT HEY THATS  BRILLIANT MARKETING!

So J, do you want a $30,000 Procontrol console to go with that HD|2 accel? You know it is the ONLY way to really tap into your new PT rig. SPEND SPEND SPEND. CONFORM CONFORM CONFORM!

Sorry. I am a little out of line here. Its just digidesign, not the NAZI party.
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bblackwood

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2004, 05:22:45 pm »

redelephant wrote on Fri, 11 June 2004 16:12

Has our fearless leader dropped his 'indie rock' morals for THE MAN?!  

Yes.
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Brad Blackwood
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meverylame

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2004, 06:15:59 pm »

That seems pretty sound.

I know what a pain in the ass it is to have to convert formats. I had this one band bring in a bunch dp3 files to import to PT, which isn't bad compared to dumping to 2", but it took 2 hours off of 6 hour mix session. I decided to be cool and stay for another 2 anyway.
Yeah, the more I think about it from your seat, I thend to agree with the HD choice. I almost always deal with bands with the literally no budget. So almost everything I get is 24/44.1, maybe even 16/44.1, so the sample rate deal just doesn't mean that much to me for where I am currently am in the food chain. Plus it sounds bounds better than mix. Even more, I'm betting you'll be just using like a tape machine for the most part anyway.

So congrads. Let us know when you get it, and what you think of it.







Oh yeah, no one slag the guy for rocking the PT. I rock the PT, and if you want to pay bills you will too. Its only cheating when you cheat on it. End of story.  
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Jason Kingsland

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xonlocust

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2004, 07:03:30 pm »

well, what's going on here is obvious.  j. - it's time to crate up the 2" and ship it up here, it's going into my house now.  Smile

jk

actually, i just got an mbox to have around too - using cubase - man do i hate using a mouse to make music though.  

have a good weekend y'all.

drumsound

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2004, 07:33:42 pm »

xonlocust wrote on Fri, 11 June 2004 18:03

well, what's going on here is obvious.  j. - it's time to crate up the 2" and ship it up here, it's going into my house now.  Smile

jk

actually, i just got an mbox to have around too - using cubase - man do i hate using a mouse to make music though.  

have a good weekend y'all.


My 2"  machine is for sale...
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j.hall

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2004, 07:40:39 pm »

bblackwood wrote on Fri, 11 June 2004 16:22

redelephant wrote on Fri, 11 June 2004 16:12

Has our fearless leader dropped his 'indie rock' morals for THE MAN?!  

Yes.




that reply coming from you...............hahahahahahaha

you have to spend money to make money

and honestly, i think all of you understand that PT dominates the market place....i'm selling a service here, one that is really hard to sell, and even harder when my only format is analog

i'm not in a position to question the client....as i'm pleased as punch i'm being hired to mix a project....i feel i should make it as easy as possible for more people to send stuff

16k for a piece of equipment like this seems like a drop in the bucket considering how much more work i can potentially get from it

and hey, if i don't get any more work then i did, i'll just sell it

nothing ventured, nothing gained

BTW, nick......if you can lift the 3M over your head by yourself....you can have it

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Zoesch

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Re: help j.hall with PT.....
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2004, 10:12:24 pm »

This thread is hilarious... Brad will do his best to convince you to go for Samplitude (Which is indeed leagues better sounding than PT) and probably I'd do the same with Nuendo...

However, if you're going for PT, don't go HD yet... and don't go Mix+ yet either... I don't see the appeal of HD for most people, but if you're going to go down that route, please, do not use the Digi I/O... we all know it's crappy sounding overpriced junk, and there's options, specially if you go for Apogee and Prism converters which are actually not that more expensive than the 192 I/O. I'd buy myself one HD core card and a DA16X (Or a Dream ADA-8) if you're looking only at mixing (Or are you looking at tracking as well, in which case change that to accomodate whatever A/D option you want).

If you wait a while, those Mix systems are going to be worth zero and you'll be able to pick one for next to nothing and still be in business (And make money out of the damned thing as opposed to breaking even on the thing) but you know you'll have no support and if people ask you for 88.2/96KHz work... well, you're screwed.
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