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Author Topic: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM  (Read 10324 times)

Jay Kadis

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Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« on: September 03, 2008, 03:51:46 pm »

OK, so we just last week replaced our aging Mackie D8B with a Yamaha DM2000.  I haven't had enough time to do a full review, but I will start with the sound quality: stellar!  We have been using the D8B for many years and with a Big Ben clocking it the sound was pretty good.  But when we played back the same old tapes we've been using for studio exercises the change was not subtle.

The DM2000 is also clocked from the Big Ben, but the tightness and articulation of vocal recordings is dramatically better, so much so I had to check to be sure no EQ or compression was engaged.  The raw tracks mixed so well with just the faders I might not be able to use these particular recordings to show how equalizers can be used to fix a track that's not quite there (the original recording was from an 80-8 that was then digitized on a DA-88.)

Yamaha has definitely done their homework in the sound quality department.  I'll report on more when we've had more time to play.

JGauthier

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 03:55:06 pm »

How much difference was there between the big ben clocking the Yamaha VS without it?

And would you say the step up with the Big Ben from the Mackie was equal to the step up from the Yamaha? As in the Apogees effect was equally better on both?

Congrats on the upgrade!
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trock

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 03:55:50 pm »

Hey jay

keep us posted on this one. i have a new yamaha n12 (far from what you have) with a mixed logic M24 controller midi'd to it. the pre's, eq and comp and verb on the n12 are just great

however, not to get away from this, the DM2000x is a piece i would really like to hear more about since yamaha bought steiny and i use cubase, the integration etc on this piece is what i would love to hear about (do you use it with cubase or nuendo?)

and in the end would love to have this as my front end

thanks!
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Jay Kadis

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 04:00:19 pm »

JGauthier wrote on Wed, 03 September 2008 12:55

How much difference was there between the big ben clocking the Yamaha VS without it?

And would you say the step up with the Big Ben from the Mackie was equal to the step up from the Yamaha? As in the Apogees effect was equally better on both?

Congrats on the upgrade!
Haven't done that yet as it would require recabling the entire studio, which is all clocked from the BB.  I do wonder about that.

The immediate impression of the sound quality increase was similar to the improvement the D8B showed when the Big Ben was added,  maybe even a little more.  I can't wait to track a project through the pre-amps & A/Ds.

Bill Mueller

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 04:44:07 pm »

Jay,

Welcome to the deliriously happy with their DM2000 club! I have owned one for almost five years and it never fails to impress me with not only the quality of the audio, but also the extreme flexibility in the in/out routing. I am running the original system software and the thing is absolutely rock solid!

The only thing I find less that perfect (they're not bad, just not great) are the channel compressors. I am considering upgrading my DM2000 to the V2 software and vintage packages, so I would be very interested in your impression of the new compressors if you have that package.

Best regards,

Bill
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stevieeastend

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 08:53:25 am »

Bill,

I am very curious on you reporting on the new compressors. IF they rock, I think th DM2000 will be my next target...
cheers
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Rpro

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 09:41:08 am »

I am a owner of a DM2000V2-VCM as well. Big Ben, RME HDSPe Madi, RME ADI-648, 3 - MY16-AT cards, 2 - MY8ADDA96 cards, and 1 -  AVIOM 16/0y1 card, NUENDO 4, CUBASE 4.5.1.

This console is very impressive and I especially enjoy the automation with total recall. The sound quality of the AD converters are crystal clear and uncolored. The mic pres are good and do run a bit hot recording drums thats why I use 16 channels of API 3124+ pres to do the job
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Fifthcircle

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2008, 06:38:32 pm »

Yamaha is not exactly known for their clocks.  Clock externally always with Yamaha boards.  The difference is not subtle.  This applies to their small studio boards as well as their larger sound reinforcement boards.

--Ben
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Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

Bill Mueller

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2008, 09:03:36 pm »

Fifthcircle wrote on Fri, 05 September 2008 18:38

Yamaha is not exactly known for their clocks.  Clock externally always with Yamaha boards.  The difference is not subtle.  This applies to their small studio boards as well as their larger sound reinforcement boards.

--Ben


Ben,

I have never heard bad things about Yamaha clocks. Where does that opinion come from? FWIW, I have clocked my DM2000 internally, by my MX2424 and with a Big Ben. I have not been able to tell any significant difference between any of them.

I did have a Tascam DM4000 years ago and it sounded better clocked to ANYTHING but itself!

Best regards,

Bill
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Fifthcircle

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 01:23:35 am »

I have used Yamaha boards for years- from the early days of O2Rs and O3D consoles to today where I use PM5D, DM2000, O1V96, M7CL, LS9 and others...  Every single board has improved massively when clocked with a good clock.

I'm currently using a Brainstorm DCD-8 for clocking duties, but I've also used Antelope, Apogee, Lavry (blue converters), Mytek (AD896 converters), and others to clock.  The differences are not subtle.  From the wider sound stage to the clearer sound of the effects.  EQs don't sound so grainy, the tails of the reverbs sound better, etc...  All this is because the conversion gets that much better with a quality clock.

--Ben
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Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

Bill Mueller

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 10:54:21 am »

Fifthcircle wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 01:23

I have used Yamaha boards for years- from the early days of O2Rs and O3D consoles to today where I use PM5D, DM2000, O1V96, M7CL, LS9 and others...  Every single board has improved massively when clocked with a good clock.

I'm currently using a Brainstorm DCD-8 for clocking duties, but I've also used Antelope, Apogee, Lavry (blue converters), Mytek (AD896 converters), and others to clock.  The differences are not subtle.  From the wider sound stage to the clearer sound of the effects.  EQs don't sound so grainy, the tails of the reverbs sound better, etc...  All this is because the conversion gets that much better with a quality clock.

--Ben

Hello Ben,

I spent a little time this morning searching for references that supports or refutes your opinion on Yamaha clocks, since what you are reporting conflicts with my own experiences. I have to admit that my experience with Yamaha consoles is limited to the DM2000, but I have about thirty five years as an engineer and started with digital audio around 1980.

The only reference I could find is from Alan Silverman of Pro Audio Review on a review of the 02R96, a little brother to the DM2000. Here is what he said about the Yamaha clock.

"My first test was to compare the main stereo analog output of the console to my mastering-grade reference digital-to-analog converter. The source was a digitally patched, pristine 24-bit/96 kHz transfer from the 1/2-inch master of the new Patricia Barber record. With the 02R96 clocked to this digital input, the sound through its control room DAC was good by today's standards, and a far cry from the DAC designs of 1995, but still a little harsh and less detailed than my reference converter. However, when I set the 02R96 as the system master clock, its analog out trumped my standalone reference DAC with a smoother sound, a more solid bottom and a larger image. This was, to say the least, a bit of a surprise. Albeit, a DAC clocked internally is at a distinct advantage because jitter is then minimized and my house converter was still on external clock, but this result was both unexpected and impressive. The 02R96 DAC was far better than I would have anticipated, and I would be completely at ease using it for critical monitoring when clocked internally."

It is my habit to not state my opinions as matters of fact. They are my opinions. It is my opinion then, and it seems Alan Silvermans opinion that the Yamaha clocks are of a fairly high quality. As I have said, I tried clocking my DM2000 with a variety of external sources and really did not hear an improvement. While it is possible that I'm not as demanding a listener as you, or my control room is less than perfect, I do get reasonable results.

I would be interested if you could provide us with some technical support to your argument, such as the published jitter results pre and post external clocking, or some other quantification of your experiences. If I can improve my system with a specific clock, I'm all for that. But it is not worth spending the money without something more than your assertion.

Best regards,

Bill
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“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton

Jay Kadis

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 01:50:44 pm »

You have to be a bit careful in comparing internally and externally clocked systems.  We use a central external clock mainly to keep the entire digital studio (3 DTRS machines, ProTools 192 Digital I/O, DM2000, Eventide Orville) clocked from the same source without daisy-chaining.   If you use internal clocking from the mixer, the peripherals cannot help but daisy-chain their clocks.  So not only does the quality of the source clock matter but so does the cabling arrangement used to distribute the clock.  

Bill Mueller

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 02:40:32 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 13:50

You have to be a bit careful in comparing internally and externally clocked systems.  We use a central external clock mainly to keep the entire digital studio (3 DTRS machines, ProTools 192 Digital I/O, DM2000, Eventide Orville) clocked from the same source without daisy-chaining.   If you use internal clocking from the mixer, the peripherals cannot help but daisy-chain their clocks.  So not only does the quality of the source clock matter but so does the cabling arrangement used to distribute the clock.  

Jay,

Of course, but your post brings up another question. What exactly is the sonic difference when externally clocking ALL of the audio components in a system, and daisy chaining the internal clock of the mixer through a few digital sources? As an example, if I remember right, the DM2000 has multiple (I don't remember how many) clock outputs, and you might only need a single level of daisy chaining to get to all the machines. The other option is to take the clock from the console to a DA and distribute it directly. In my opinion, if the (internal and potential external) clocks are of a similar quality, distributing the internal clock of the console (advantage to the console's DAC) with a DA might be superior.

Best regards,

Bill
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"Don't take it personally. But this shit is a science." J.J.Blair

“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton

Jay Kadis

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2008, 03:13:01 pm »

Bill Mueller wrote on Thu, 11 September 2008 11:40


Jay,

Of course, but your post brings up another question. What exactly is the sonic difference when externally clocking ALL of the audio components in a system, and daisy chaining the internal clock of the mixer through a few digital sources? As an example, if I remember right, the DM2000 has multiple (I don't remember how many) clock outputs, and you might only need a single level of daisy chaining to get to all the machines. The other option is to take the clock from the console to a DA and distribute it directly. In my opinion, if the (internal and potential external) clocks are of a similar quality, distributing the internal clock of the console (advantage to the console's DAC) with a DA might be superior.

Best regards,

Bill
It does have 2 clock outs, but one does only up to 48 kHz while the other handles up to 96 kHz.

Arf! Mastering

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Re: Our new Yamaha DM2000VCM
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 01:24:36 am »

One comment about the excerpt from my 02R96 review quoted by Bill.

In my first set-up the 02R96 was pulling clock from the AES digital in.  Presumably that would entail more degradation from interface jitter than if the desk were clocked from a high-quality studio clock via a properly terminated BNC connection, as described by Ben.

Jitter effects are a constantly moving target with so many variables and so many differences in individual set ups -  probably the reason opinions on the subject are so varied.

I still agree, though, that Yamaha makes great sounding digital consoles.
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