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Author Topic: Maybe, a new record has been set!  (Read 4085 times)

Level

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Maybe, a new record has been set!
« on: June 08, 2004, 02:38:31 pm »

Firestarter by Gene Simmons comes in at a whopping +14.3VU.

Sounds like total ass...

Can we see 15!

When is the madness going to end folks....(bows head in shame)


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YwAjY2wh3NWxX4b6gshFY6vemkIAhQqj8eBo3*oyyVYBdXINySIYlZBhpMdN7QNnIWMNeEOWNDR71UDkdFy!bGIvo*PFKcOOsburH!OprqY8Hqrp6VdoQCWJr5b!QUt7rE8*Tm8dl4Fe5VNmee4K5A/firestarter.JPG?dc=4675475626263955356

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lowland

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2004, 05:13:41 am »

Not nearly hot enough - I can still see white bits...
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Nigel Palmer
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Dr. Yes

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2004, 01:08:01 pm »

No one deserves bad sound more that Gene Simmons.
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magicchord

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2004, 03:07:51 pm »

Is that louder than eleven?

index.php/fa/98/0/
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Patrick Bryant - Magicchord Music BMI

bblackwood

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2004, 03:10:44 pm »

Level wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 13:38

Firestarter by Gene Simmons comes in at a whopping +14.3VU.

At what DAC calibration level?
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2004, 03:18:18 pm »

Brad, this was direct digital from the CD to sound forge 7.0

I honestly do not know a way to adjust the level when I open a .cda file right off the disc in sound forge. Of course, after it is opened, I can edit it..but is it possable that I have an unknown calibration level from my CD rom drive when SF 7.0 opens the file?

Clue me in, I may be missing something! Thumbs Up  

I can set all my levels to infinity and it does not affect what SF 7.0 sees from the CD. Other good quality CD's do not show absurd levels.

I can burn a CD from a file, then open the CD and the levels stay precisely the same, to a 0.01dB.
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bblackwood

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2004, 03:29:41 pm »

Is it telling you something like 'RMS power' or calling it 'VU'? I'm unaware of how you can digitally measure VU as it is a fixed analog reference level and 0dbfs is not.

0 VU is +4 dbm and represents a voltage level of 1.228 volts (1kHz, 600 ohms).


Unless I'm mistaken...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2004, 03:40:20 pm »

Sound forge 7.0 has VU meters in addition to peak reading.

For the VU meters, we have these settings:

Traditional VU
Logarithmic VU
Extended VU
UK PPM
EBU PPM
DIN PPM
Nordic PPM

The ballistics I used for this file were that of Traditional VU. The meters can be scaled so the actual indication over +3 will read to the right.

RMS power on the otherhand cannot exceed 0 as we all know.

I believe their are some pretty accurate plug-ins available for VU that you can install to see where your reference level lays. Typically, very hot CD's will reach as high as +8VU but never have I seen anything above 11 and this 14.3 is simply "crazy"

The VU scheme that sound forge uses may be an "approximation" of actual VU. I would like to see the code behind the readings. It may give some valuable insight as to how they are deriving the figures. I am dabbling in this code a little bit to understand the actual design nature of plug in's. I get lost pretty quick in machine code.


Quote:

0 VU is +4 dbm and represents a voltage level of 1.228 volts (1kHz, 600 ohms).



Correct. And also 0dbfs should be 0.775V
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bblackwood

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2004, 03:46:30 pm »

Level wrote on Wed, 09 June 2004 14:40

Sound forge 7.0 has VU meters in addition to peak reading.

I'd just like to see a reference level. +14.3VU is pointless if it's not really VU!

Quote:

Quote:

0 VU is +4 dbm and represents a voltage level of 1.228 volts (1kHz, 600 ohms).



Correct. And also 0dbfs should be 0.775V

Umm, no - 0dBm is .778V (1kHz, 600 ohms). 0dBfs is whatever you want it to be in the analog world...
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

magicchord

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2004, 03:49:49 pm »

I think what Brad is asking is - if you use "simple synthesis" to make a 1k tone in SF that's -20dBfs, what level does the VU graph display on that same tone?
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Patrick Bryant - Magicchord Music BMI

Level

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2004, 03:51:03 pm »

PS:

I just opened a file I did last week of a mastering job of a song called "bottom Line" which is an up tempo R&B dance number.

To give you an idea of how this one did statistically with the metering and the statistical data, this is what I got.

BTW, I consider it very hot, it played really nice at the dance club and was plenty loud, full and had a nice balance. The DJ said, it was "pumped up real nice"

Peak Left -0.67
Peak Right -0.56
RMS Left -15.37
RMS Right -15.20
VU Left +9.4 highest reading
VU Right +9.5 highest reading
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Level

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2004, 03:53:20 pm »

MC, I just did one (-20 /1K) and the VU is reading -5
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bblackwood

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2004, 03:53:34 pm »

magicchord, thank you. That would be helpful. I know nothing about Sound Forge...

Bill, to make this actually meaningful to others, why not make a few measurements with 1kHz sine waves and various levels and tell us what they call it in VU.
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2004, 03:55:40 pm »

Cool, I will pick a few..and post in a few mins
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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2004, 04:04:03 pm »

Here they are, I am getting fast with the mouse these days..


1khz sine wave
-30 = -15vu
-25 = -10vu
-20 = -5vu
-15 = 0vu
-12 = +3vu
-10 = +5vu
-7  = +8vu
-5  = +10vu
-3  = +12vu
0   = +15VU

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Level

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2004, 04:07:25 pm »

Also notice that my mastering job was around-15 RMS..but the actual VU was over +9. Steady state and random state seems to show the weighting of the meters. Tone bursts may give completly different results. They average between peak and rms data with the music, as a true VU should
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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2004, 04:51:18 pm »

One more thing I tried. I took a 10 second file of music and increased the volume 20dB, 2 times, utter clipping and hash.

The VU meters read +17.9dB. This is as high as they will go. I did this to see their "limit"
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j.hall

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2004, 04:53:06 pm »

i think this says it all

even the kids get it man.............

http://projects.euphonicmasters.com/misc/0dBfs_iraq.jpg

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Level

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2004, 09:29:20 pm »

Brad, how do the VU figures look to you based on my little experiment?
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Gold

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2004, 01:35:08 pm »

Looks like they decided -15dBfs = 0VU with a little oversampling wiggle room to account for the +17.8 figure that popped up. Doesn't tell you very much. dBfs and dBu(M) have no relationship. Never did, never will. Unless they clearly define the implimentation of their "VU" standard it is misleading at best.

Broadcasters have made their own standards in this matter. Maybe it follows one of those. Every European country has different standards IIRC. The BBC, Germany, Scandanavia, France.
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Paul Gold
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D Harris

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2004, 01:51:09 pm »

Gold wrote on Thu, 10 June 2004 13:35

Looks like they decided -15dBfs = 0VU
.


So this means that for the CD in question 0vu is about -.7dbFS.  That's negative  "point" 7, yikes!  I bet that sounds punchy.
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Dave Harris
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bblackwood

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Re: Maybe, a new record has been set!
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2004, 03:56:52 pm »

Well, as Paul said above, tones don't give you the full picture here and without a reference voltage level and knowing what ballistics are used to generate the number, calling it VU doesn't really work with me...

That being said, it sounds like this is a hot record, but how hot relative to the other smashed-to-death releases (such as the new Maroon5 album) is hard to say.
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Brad Blackwood
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